Trevor Koverkois the cofounder and CEO of Polymath Network which is the interface between financial securities and the blockchain. The company has raised $59 million. Prior to this, Trevor Koverko founded several other companies.
In this episode you will learn:
- Bitcoin versus gold, versus the S&P 500
- ‘The Flippening’
- The need to unlearn everything they taught you in school
- Why college no longer makes financial sense
- The equalizing power of crypto and blockchain
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About Trevor Koverko:
Trevor Koverko was born March 22, 1987, in Toronto, Canada. He is an Entrepreneur, Founder, and CEO of Polymath
Trevor Koverko is a prominent blockchain founder, investor and speaker.
After launching his career at the convergence of Wall Street and Silicon Valley, Trevor became a very early leader in the blockchain community – financing foundational projects like Ethereum, EOS and Shapeshift.
In 2017, after predicting the mega-trend of financial securities migrating to the blockchain, Trevor Koverko cofounded Polymath – the worlds largest security token platform.
Prior to Polymath, Trevor’s Oculus Rift-based project became one of the world’s first VR exits. Trevor Koverko graduated from Canada’s leading business school, Ivey, and was an NHL draft pick of the New York Rangers.
Connect with Trevor Koverko:
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FULL TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW:
Alejandro: Alrighty. Hello everyone, and welcome to the DealMakers show. Today we’re going to be talking quite a bit about crypto, and definitely, the guest that we have today knows a lot about it and as well scaling, building, and exiting, and all the above in terms of full-cycle when doing a business. But I don’t want to make any of you wait any longer, so let’s welcome our guest today. Trevor Koverko, welcome to the show.
Trevor Koverko: Thanks, Alejandro. I’m honored to be here. You have a lot of amazing guests on the show.
Alejandro: Thank you. So, born and raised in Toronto. How was life there?
Trevor Koverko: Life was really good. It’s an amazing city – very underrated. We have a lot of great stuff going on. The real thing, if you’re a young boy, is hockey. We joke that if you don’t play hockey as a kid, you get deported. That’s how seriously we take hockey in this country. That’s what I did, and that was my full-time thing for my young adult life from childhood all the way up to early 20s.
Alejandro: And anyone in the family that was also an entrepreneur?
Trevor Koverko: No. My father was in finance, but no entrepreneurs, so to speak. We have a lot of lawyers, though. A lot of lawyers in the family, so kind of the opposite if you ask me.
Alejandro: That’s a good thing, so definitely if you want the important disputes; you’ve got to win them at home. So, good stuff. Good stuff. In your case, you followed the path of hockey, and you made it all the way to getting drafted by the NHL. That’s quite an accomplishment.
Trevor Koverko: Yeah. It was a lot of fun. There’s nothing better than playing for professional sports. It’s just the things that I love: competition, comradery with the team, and all these things. Like I said, you play from a young age, and you move away from your home at a young age. There’s no college hockey as big a thing in Canada, so you move to private club teams when you’re 14, 15, 16 years old – in new cities all around the country, and I loved every minute of it.
Alejandro: As they say, life is a sequence of events, and what really matters is the way that you react to those events. In your case, in 2005, right after getting drafted, you got injured, and probably your life came crumbling. So how was that for you?
Trevor Koverko: Yeah. Sometimes I joke that the coach called me in the office, and he said, “Son, you’re just too good. We’re going to have to send you home.” [Laughter] But, you know, I agree. I can’t argue with that, but in reality, I got some serious injuries. I got some shoulder surgery. I was in a random car accident, as well. So, I was at a crossroads, and I was forced to reinvent myself. Looking back, it was a blessing in disguise because I was still young and still able to find a new purpose and mission in my life.
Alejandro: So then, what happened? Why go to Asia?
Trevor Koverko: I didn’t know what to do next, but entrepreneurship always appealed to me, and I idolized a lot of the entrepreneurs from my childhood, and Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, and these kinds of guys. What I did – I did what a lot of folks do when they want to be entrepreneurs; they apply to incubator programs. We got accepted into one in Dali and China, which is northeast of Beijing, and it was an amazing program. Sometimes, people ask me, “Why did you go to China?” The fake answer is because I saw this mega-trend of Asia emerging, so I wanted to get there early. But the real answer is it was the only accelerator program we got into. So we packed our bags up, and my co-founder and I moved to China, and that was the beginning of my entrepreneur career.
Alejandro: Wow. So then what happened after the accelerator?
Trevor Koverko: We learned a lot. It was a really tough slog early-on because we weren’t doing things super efficiently. What helped me, and to this day is, I discovered Y Combinator, and I discovered all these amazing free resources online. I don’t even lecture people now or give people advice. I say, “Just go to Y Combinator resources, libraries,” and it is amazing content, and it would short track a lot of the mistakes and failures I had early-on. So that’s something I like to talk about. To this day, I still use a lot of the lessons I’ve learned through folks over there and through the videos that I’ve watched.
Alejandro: So let’s talk about your first company.
Trevor Koverko: The first one that got acquired was a virtual reality company I tried on. I always like new, shiny technologies, and that’s a negative sometimes because I chase these objects sometimes too much. But I tried on the DK1 for the Oculus Rift. That was the developer kit that they came out before Facebook acquired them. I was enamored and smitten by this technology right away. I said, “I’ve got to do something.” So I called up my friend, who’s a property developer, and we built something where we would give virtual tours of preconstruction condos, like luxury condos. Once the buyer put the headset on, they could immediately be transported to this actual environment that looks exactly like it’s going to look when it’s finished. We actually helped and sold a couple of penthouses, and that was an exciting deal for me. From beginning to selling it, it was only nine or ten months, so it was a really fun exit for me.
Alejandro: Talking about the exit, what was that point where the deal almost blew up because of a typo?
Trevor Koverko: [Laughter] My friend is going to kill me for this, but basically, we were in the board room. It was a private equity company in Canada called Griffith Capital, and they were going to take it public because they loved the technology, and they loved the team. At the last second, they called me into the board room, and they said, “Son, I’m sorry, but the deal’s off.” I said, “No. We have an LOI. The deal’s on.” He said, “Nope. We refuse to do business with someone who calls their company” – so just for a background, the company’s called Polymath Labs. That was the name of the company. That was my brilliant name. But the problem is, my friend, who I played hockey with as a kid, made a typo on the Articles of Incorporation and put an e instead of an a. So instead of Polymath Lab, it was Polymeth Labs. [Laughter] So the director, the MD of this private equity fund, said, “We refuse to do business with someone who would name their company Polymeth Lab.” But the deal went through, and it took a few weeks to salvage that one, but looking back, we laugh about it. I still have that printed out on my desk at home, Polymeth Labs, to this day.
Alejandro: That’s amazing. What did you learn from that full cycle because doing the full cycle and seeing a company from nothing to exit is quite an accomplishment, and then also, it gives you a lot of visibility? So what did it give you?
Trevor Koverko: You know, for me, it was being really efficient in the early days. I found in VR, you don’t need typical engineers. You need game designers who do 3D modeling and shading. So, I went on LinkedIn, and I looked for people who had experience with Unity, that’s the engine that a lot of VRs built onto to this day, and being able to do that quickly, and getting our first deals as fast as possible, being lean, getting product/market fit as fast as we can. Those were all the lessons I learned. The companies before that, I didn’t have that same conviction and mindset in running a company like that, but I definitely learned by the outcome how much of a difference it can be when you treat your company like something that has to be done quickly and efficiently and experimenting as much as possible.
Alejandro: How old were you when you sold the company?
Trevor Koverko: I was in my mid-20s, and I was kind of a dinosaur these days in Silicon Valley, but that was a lot of fun in my 20s.
Alejandro: So, here you are in your mid-20s with some money in the pocket, and you decide to start a private equity. So why private equity?
Trevor Koverko: I wanted to go on the other side of the table, and I was very lucky because a very close friend of mine named Devon was a banker in San Francisco for Goldman Sachs. I convinced him to leave the company, and we started a private equity fund together. The idea here was, we’d been operators, but we want to go to the other side of the table, so to speak. That’s pretty common in Silicon Valley, too. The idea here was, we wanted to merge cash flowing online businesses with financial engineering, so we did rollups of online businesses that were high-yielding, high-margin, high-cashflow, and we would use leverage to acquire these businesses. So it was kind of like a levered-buy-up firm. It was a lot of fun. It was merging my two passions of software and finance. He focused on the finance; I focused on the software side of things. We would also manage these companies. A lot of private equity funds bring in the managers, but we actually did the management as well because we had a lot of really good operators in our environment. Then, we woke up one morning and – one last passion of mine is crypto. I was very early in the crypto world. In 2012, I bought my first bitcoin on eBay, of all places. I don’t recommend anyone doing that now, but I bought a bitcoin for 20 bucks in 2012, and ever since then, I was always like super interested in that space. It went up and down a lot, so I did some other things as well. But we woke up one morning running this fund, and we said, “Hey. Crypto’s getting really exciting again, and it’s getting validated in the real world. What if we could tokenize our fund, like the LP shares of our fund, and we could become the world’s first dividend-paying crypto?” This was back in 2015, 2016. We saw another project that tokenized a venture fund, and we got inspired by that called Blockchain Capital. And that’s what we did. Well, at least we tried, Alejandro. We tried to tokenize it. We actually failed because it turns out that securities laws – when you launch an asset-backed token, it’s a security, and security laws don’t reconcile very well with the open and permission lists and pseudonymous nature of crypto. So it was impossible for us to stay compliant because unauthorized investors could get ahold of these coins, and there’s nothing that a bank or a regulator could do. At that point, we pivoted, and we said, “Hey. What if we could figure out a way to not just make it possible, but easy to launch asset-backed coins, to tokenize anything: stocks, bonds, derivatives, real estate. That was our big vision, and that’s when we started my current company, Polymath, back in 2017.
Alejandro: For the folks that are listening, what does it mean to tokenize something?
Trevor Koverko: Well, a lot of people are familiar with how the sausage is made, so to speak, when it comes to Wall Street and capital markets. What’s scary to me is that a lot of the technology that our financial system that runs on today is extremely outdated and legacy technology. I mean, even the DTCC, which settles trillions of dollars of transactions a month, they’re built on COBOL code from 1980. I might be exaggerating a little bit. I’m sure they’ve improved, but even some of their teams say, “Yeah, we’re looking at new Blockchain solutions to bring this into the modern era.” So there are a lot of things about the existing financial system that is complicated. There are a lot of rent-seekers and middlemen taking fees. It’s very opaque. That didn’t sit well with me, being a finance guy, so I said, “What if we could help upgrade the current financial system to modern era distributed technology that we know as Blockchain?”
Alejandro: Okay. Very cool. What was the next piece here in the chapter? What happened after?
Trevor Koverko: We launched Polymath in 2018, which is when the network went live. We had a lot of fun because a lot of people really resonated with our message. One of the unique things is when we went to do our fundraise; first of all, we were one of the first crypto projects to register with the SEC, so we wanted to make sure that we weren’t being hypocritical and that we were following the rules because that’s exactly what our mission was at Polymath. We did a fundraise in 2017 from a wide network of high net worth investors. To me, we didn’t want to talk to venture funds as much back then because crypto’s a little different. It’s important to decentralize; it’s important to be distributed; it’s important to have a big community. If you look at how much money Bitcoin raised, it was zero dollars. It just launched. You didn’t need venture capitalists. If you look at Ethereum, they only raised something like 12 million dollars, I believe, which pales in comparison to what its market cap is today. So that’s what we did. We raised 59 million dollars in 2017, 2018, and it was a wide network of accredited investors who I knew. It was a really exciting time for us to get our story out to the world.
Alejandro: That 59 million, was it like the typical offering, or for the people that are listening, how did you structure that?
Trevor Koverko: Yeah, this is a fascinating thing. A lot of people don’t know about crypto and blockchain is that there are ways to raise money, a significant amount of money, in a non-dilutive way. Things have evolved a bit since we did it, but you could issue a token that is actually a product. It’s access to your network. So you’re not just selling equity that sits in a filing cabinet somewhere. You’re issuing a token, and that token can be determined to be revenue on your income statement rather than equity on your cap table. So what that did is the vast majority of our early capitalization came non-dilutively, and that allowed us to save our equity for later. We are actually utilizing that these days, as well, as we tokenize our own company. But, yeah. That was an exciting thing for us is being one of the early projects that were able to raise a significant amount of capital without diluting too much.
Alejandro: While we’re on the nondilutive capital that you can raise here, tell us about dual unicorns. What does that mean?
Trevor Koverko: I don’t know if this is mainstream yet, but I’ve noticed there are some projects that have 2-billion-dollar components to them. So Unicorns is a billion-dollar private company. A dual unicorn in crypto is you have a billion dollars of equity value and a billion dollars of token value. And it’s a whole other dimension that makes running a crypto startup even more exciting than a traditional startup. Some examples of this are projects like EOS. They have a billion-dollar equity value and a billion-dollar-plus crypto value. Ripple Labs – some of your listeners might have heard of them – same thing. There are four or five of them, and I think it’s really exciting as more and more companies can hit this milestone.
Alejandro: In your case, at Polymath, how do you guys make money?
Trevor Koverko: The other thing about crypto is, let me ask you. How does Bitcoin make money? How does Ethereum make money? A lot of these projects are based out of not-for-profit foundations. What we’re really doing, just like a lot of these early blockchains that have been built is, we’re building the infrastructure for decentralized finance and blockchain ecosystems to flourish, and that means every day, we’re doing whatever we can to maximize the usage of these protocols. For us, we don’t really prioritize business models quite yet. It’s kind of like when you build a house. You can’t put the scaffolding in and the furniture in until the foundation is built. The market is so early and so young and so immature that we’re exclusively focused on building a sustainable blockchain right now, and in the future, we’ll be working on SaaS products and other monetization on top of that. But for now, we’re focused on building and distributing this blockchain. If I may say, the one difference with the Polymath blockchain, which we call Polymesh, is that it’s purpose-built for financial assets to tokenize. In other words, it is custom-built for security tokens. All other blockchains today, including Bitcoin and Ethereum, are built for DAPS or protocol coins, and we can get into that, as well. For us, we’re laser-focused on migrating financial assets like stocks, bonds, derivatives, real estate over to the blockchain. Right now, there’s no clear leader of purpose-built blockchains for this, and we’re trying to fill that gap.
Alejandro: So it’s kind of like Google back in the days where they were just search, and then they built the distribution, and the brand, and so forth, and then they introduced the ads to monetize the people that they had in their ecosystem. So perhaps something like that. Correct?
Trevor Koverko: Exactly. Then, another way to look at it is, right now, today, crypto’s getting exciting again for retail investors and institutional investors, but it’s only worth about 500 billion total market cap between all tokens. So, Bitcoin, plus Ethereum, plus Ripple, plus all of them, it’s about half a trillion dollars give or take. That sounds like a lot, but it’s actually if you zoom out to broader capital markets that’s just a rounding era, really. There are some funds that have over a trillion dollars in it, and that’s just one fund. Our goal is eventually to have these market caps double and triple overnight with one fund tokenizing or one company tokenizing, and we’re trying to build the pieces in the infrastructure to make that possible.
Alejandro: So, can you expand a little bit more on what D5 protocols are?
Trevor Koverko: Back to the house analogy, there are different layers to crypto. You have Layer 1’s, which are the blockchain protocols. So, Bitcoin is a Layer 1 protocol. Ethereum is a Layer 1 protocol. On top of those protocols, you have decentralized applications or DAPS. That’s one example of a Layer 2. They live on top of these Layer 1 protocols. For example, Compound is a Layer 2 D5 protocol for lending that lives on top of Ethereum. Another analogy here is iOS. iOS would be the base layer, and then Uber and Facebook would be the applications on top of that base layer. From an investment thesis standpoint, you might be asking yourself, “Where is the value going to accrue in these networks?” That’s what I encourage a lot of people looking to invest in crypto to understand. If you look at the internet itself, I think it’s a good analogy of where crypto is today. When the internet launched in the ‘80s and ‘90s, it was just a protocol. TCP/IP and HTTP. A lot of the value didn’t come until infrastructure came on top of that, the Cisco’s and the modems and the broadband. Then, and only then, could applications exist. So back in 1990, it wasn’t a good idea to invest in applications yet because the infrastructure wasn’t there to support a Netflix and streaming and things like this. So crypto is very similar to that in the sense that we still think it’s so early that we’re still focusing on the base layer protocols. Then, and only then, can we focus on the applications. But the good news is that in 2020, 2021, we’re seeing a lot of high-performing interesting projects like the one I just mentioned, Compound, which is a D5 protocol living on top of a blockchain like Ethereum.
Alejandro: As we know it now, Bitcoin has really increased by a mile, and before the search, before that, we saw like a few years ago was really driven by retail investors, and now it seems institutional, so what do you think has gotten into those institutionals to wake up and to be part of this thing?
Trevor Koverko: Yeah. Bitcoin hit an all-time high the other day, as we’re recording here. I look at Bitcoin, kind of like digital gold. That, to me, is the best analogy. So gold sits there. It doesn’t produce an income, and its inflation is very small. I think the total supply of gold increases about 2% every year. Bitcoin is the exact same. It’s not designed to be super high-performing by design, and its inflation is very small, as well, about 2%, just like gold. But now, you’re seeing, like you said, a lot of institutional demand coming into the market, and that’s the difference between this bull market and the last one in 2018 is, it’s driven, like you said, by institutional capital. The reason institutions are able to invest this time is a) because they understand it better, they’ve done the research. But b) the infrastructure around Bitcoin is much more developed. So the onramps, the offramps, the infrastructure around exchanges and custody providers and transfer agents, all these things needed for this ecosystem to flourish, are now live. I could name you four or five different venture-backed companies in each one of those different categories, which is really exciting.
Alejandro: In your case, you’ve even experienced yourself, the nice returns on investing. For example, in the case of Block.one, what was that?
Trevor Koverko: Yeah. Crypto and Blockchain, there’s a completely different way to invest. It’s not like traditional venture because when crypto projects launch, the token is liquid. But venture capital, it’s not. When you write a check as an angel, sometimes, you have to wait ten years-plus before it’s liquid. In crypto, it’s a lot faster. I’ve done some deals personally. I don’t do as much angel investing in crypto deals nowadays, but in the past where you can invest in the equity of a crypto company, and then that company goes on to issue tokens as revenue, and then that value goes on the balance sheet of the company. One example of that that you just mentioned, we invested a 30 or 40-million-dollar post-money valuation, and they went on to raise billions of dollars in token sales. Now, just by the nave of the company, it became a multi-billion-dollar project. There’s one example of some of the new exciting ways you can get exposed to crypto and realize a lot of good returns as well.
Alejandro: Going back to Polymath, what’s the size of the business? Anything that you can share in terms of number of employees or anything else to get a better understanding?
Trevor Koverko: We’re just over 60 employees, half based in Toronto, half globally. Crypto is, by nature, very distributed and remote, so we’ve been lucky with COVID here that it hasn’t been too difficult of a transition for us. We’re about half engineers, half non-engineers. In terms of the project itself, we’ve launched over 200 security tokens, and these have ranged from tokenizing shares in a fund, like LP shares, tokenizing a wind farm, and the income stream gets paid in crypto, to tokenizing real estate. We’ve partnered with a company called Red Swan that’s planning on tokenizing 2 billion dollars of real estate. If you can tell, I’m really excited about this space within crypto. I think it’s going to be one of the hottest spaces next year. The reason I say that is because if you look at this year alone, the total market cap of security tokens – these are not like Bitcoin and Ethereum but like asset-backed tokens like tokenized real estate, tokenized companies. It’s been doubling every month almost this year. And volumes of secondary trades on these new exchanges that support license exchange trading has been tripling every month. I think now we’re seeing a lot of escape velocity in this space and exponential growth, and I think we’re positioned really well to take advantage of that.
Alejandro: One thing that I wanted to ask you is that Bitcoin really was like the reaction to the meltdown back in 2008, and in a way that was decentralized because the meltdown was, to a certain degree, created as a result of certain measures that the government took into play. So this whole Bitcoin and Blockchain is all about decentralizing and not having the middleman. But one of the things that was interesting to me was that when the market tumbled as a result of the COVID-19 uncertainties, I was hoping that Bitcoin would surge because it’s just like gold. When the market goes down, gold goes up. But Bitcoin went kind of like in parallel with the stock market. So, what are your thoughts on that?
Trevor Koverko: Yeah, there’s a debate in our industry of, is Bitcoin decoupled from the S&P 500? I will admit there’s been a lot of correlation this year. I would probably attribute that to the fact that it’s more risk-on, risk-off. Crypto is still a high-risk investment, and that means when the economy crashes, then you have a lot of flight to safety, and crypto isn’t quite safe yet. Although that’s changing, and with the new version of blockchains coming, our now called proof of stake blockchains that have different ways to mind the tokens, you actually get a dividend yield for holding the tokens. It’s called stacking rewards. If you hold Ethereum starting next year, you’ll be able to receive some interest on the Eth. What that means is, I think, because you’re locked up while you’re getting these dividends, it’s more stable, and you’re not going to have as much volatility. In addition to that, you’re also going to realize some good yields, especially compared to the risk-free raid, and treasury bonds, and things like that.
Alejandro: Do you think that could affect the utility of the token?
Trevor Koverko: Absolutely. You asked me earlier about D5 and yield farming. Some of your audience might have heard of these things. It is really exciting, and not exciting because the price of these things are going up, but exciting because of the usage is going through the roof. There are hundreds of millions of dollars locked up in D5 today. That’s growing every single day, and we’re excited to see how – what we’ve been talking about for a long time is starting to finally come true, where true utility is being realized by these blockchain networks, not just as a speculative asset.
Alejandro: Imagine, Trevor, that you go to sleep tonight, and you wake up five years later – tremendous snooze – you wake up in a world where the vision of Polymath is fully realized. What does that world look like?
Trevor Koverko: You know what? One thing I always like to look forward to is we call the flippening. Some people have different definitions, but that’s when the market cap of security tokens eclipse the market cap of all other tokens. They’re called utility tokens that aren’t backed by anything other than a protocol. So, right now, security tokens are about 500 million dollars with an m – 500 million dollars in total market cap; just very, very small. It started at 10 million at the beginning of this year, just to show you how fast it’s growing, but in five years, I’m definitely seeing scenarios where security tokens as an asset class continue to grow and outpace the growth of Bitcoin and other assets, even though we expect those to grow substantially as well. We see the real possibility with conversations we’re having every day of trillions of dollars migrating to the blockchain. To me, that’s what gets us out of bed every day.
Alejandro: Very, very cool. One of the things that I typically ask the guests that come on the show is if you had the opportunity, Trevor, of going back in time and maybe you had a chat with that younger Trevor that was in Asia figuring out what kind of company that you were going to launch. If you were able to have a chat there with that younger Trevor and give that younger Trevor one piece of business advice before launching a business, what would that be and why given what you know now?
Trevor Koverko: Do not depend on traditional school to teach you the skills you need to be successful in business. I’ll say that again. Do not depend on traditional schools and academia to teach you – it’s to the point – I had a good education. I can’t speak poorly of it, but it gets to the point where sometimes, you have to unlearn. Not just you have to learn new things, but you have to unlearn what you were indoctrinated with as a kid. So I encourage everyone to listen to podcasts, listen to DealMakers, listen to people who have done it before. You can get free mentorship anytime, anywhere, on-demand. For me, it was Y Combinator videos. To others, it might be courses or whatever, but there are no excuses nowadays. Everyone has access to the same knowledge, and to me, that’s where you’re going to learn skills like negotiating skills like sales. They don’t teach this in school, but I have to do this stuff every day now with my day job, so that’s what I would tell my younger self.
Alejandro: You know, there’s something to follow-up on this. I agree with you 100%. There’s this thing that I read today is the following, “Imagine starting your career in the 1960s. You are a graduate from college. You have zero debt. Your first job pays enough to buy a house and support a family on a single income with an undergrad degree. Now, think about starting your career today. You graduated college. You have $75,000 in debt. Your first job requires four years of experience, unpaid internships, and a Master’s Degree, and it pays $20 an hour. Maybe there’s a problem here.”
Trevor Koverko: That’s unbelievable, and one thing to add to that, just before we wrap up, Blockchain and crypto are the most democratizing and inclusive technology you can imagine. You can raise money without even showing your face. It’s all transparent code that dictates your project. You don’t just have to invest from your network or the old boys club. You can literally raise capital all over the world 24/7. To me, that’s empowering, and I think everyone should know that this is possible. And if you don’t have your dad that knows a VC on Sand Hill Road, that’s not as much needed anymore if you want to build a meaningful and impactful business.
Alejandro: I love it. So Trevor, for the people that want to reach out and say hi, what is the best way to get in touch?
Trevor Koverko: My social media is just my name. I think I’m the only Trevor Koverko on the planet, so @trevorkoverko.
Alejandro: Well, Trevor, thank you so much for being on the DealMakers show today.
Trevor Koverko: Thanks, Alejandro. I appreciate it.
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