Neil Patel

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In this captivating episode of the Dealmakers’ Podcast, we embark on an extraordinary voyage with Tony Pan, a visionary entrepreneur determined to combat climate change through groundbreaking technology.

From his early days growing up as the son of a Taiwan Navy officer to founding Modern Hydrogen, Tony’s journey has been nothing short of inspiring. Modern Hydrogen has attracted funding from top-tier investors like Gates Frontier, IRONGREY, Valo Ventures, and Starlight Ventures.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • The journey from a tech enthusiast to a climate tech pioneer demonstrating the transformative power of passion and purpose in driving innovation
  • Modern Hydrogen’s groundbreaking technology with the potential to decarbonize natural gas and reduce a staggering 10 gigatons of CO2 emissions annually, making a significant impact on climate change.
  • The climate tech industry challenges during the “cli-tech winter,” but recent momentum and government support for a more favorable environment for climate-focused startups like Modern Hydrogen.
  • Modern Hydrogen’s vision beyond emissions reduction, aiming to repair the damage done to the biosphere by pairing their technology with biogas and achieving negative emissions.
  • Leadership and commitment to fostering a strong team culture being instrumental in the success of Modern Hydrogen, inspiring innovation, and creating a transformative impact on the future of clean energy.


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    About Tony Pan:

    Tony Pan is the Chief Executive Officer of Modern Hydrogen and an inventor who has 250+ patents pending in energy & climate, nanotechnology, and biomedical devices.

    Tony’s experience includes being a Member of Global Future Councils of the World Economic Forum in Energy and in Entrepreneurship. He is also a pro bono consultant on global health, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and Global Good Fund.

    Tony is the Term Member of the Council on Foreign Relations. National fellowships: Hertz, Soros, and National Science Foundations. Formerly, he worked with Goldman Sachs and graduated from Stanford with a Ph.D. in Physics and also studied at Harvard University.

    Tony is a published scientist in theoretical physics and an angel investor. He was named to Forbes 30 under 30, MIT Technology Review Innovators under 35, and Business Journal 40 under 40.

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    Connect with Tony Pan:

    Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

    Alejandro Cremades: Um, already hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So a very exciting founder that we have joining us. We’re going to be talking about some really interesting stuff. Especially you know, like with all this stuff that is revolving around climate change I think is quite timely this conversation. And his journey as an entrepreneur building scaling financing. You know all the good stuff that we like to hear is quite inspiring so without further ado. Let’s welcome our guest today Tony Pan welcome to the show.

    Tony Pan: Hi. It’s great to be here.

    Alejandro Cremades: So originally born in Taiwan Tony give us a walk through memory lane I was like growing up.

    Tony Pan: Life was decent I was the son of a Taiwan Navy officer and so that’s the best trade your parents joined the Navy you get to see the world. So I grew up actually in Taiwan Scotland and Korea. And then at age eighteen I came to us to go to college.

    Alejandro Cremades: I mean obviously Stanford you know out of all places you know quite the place you know, full of innovation in you studied physics white physics.

    Tony Pan: Tech nerd by I think by my Dna I was always interested in the natural world was the governing laws of the universe and how things worked and I think you can get into a tech both the. Understanding the universe from physics but also understanding how most things in a world work right? It’s whether it’s the chips in your computer to the machines that par human civilization. It’s physics.

    Alejandro Cremades: Then you know in your case, you know you did the undergrad in Stanford in physics the ph d in physics at Harvard. So I mean you’ve been on on the biggest hey universities you know that what couldn’t think of now in your case you know one of the things that you did is after you know graduating you went at it. Um, in the basically as a professionalal and you did Goldman Sachs so I guess what was that transition you know from you know, doing more like the finance you know, ah that kind of work to then all of a sudden you know landing at a.bill gates foundation you know type of thing I mean it’s a it’s such like a crazy one eighty no so walk us through what happened there.

    Tony Pan: Yeah, so the Goldman experience is interesting in the sense that so I never intended to go to finance or stay in finance. But in college my dad caught cancer and died. So I was. I needed to make money very quickly to support the family I paid my sister’s tuition and basically quits when she graduated but it was a very good experience for me in retrospect because money moves toward. You have to understand how the numbers work and what drives. Businesses and human behavior and I got to learn a lot of finance in a very short interval because out of sheer bad luck I joined randomly Goldman’s mortgage departments during the great financial crisis so I had to do things like the big short. And running the fed stress test when I was like 22 years old but the the plan was always to go back to physics and in fact, I’d say the more unusual thing of ending up in a startup was that you you do a physics ph d unless you think at some point you want to make your impact by developing technology and science in a university. It was in the middle middle of my graduate studies during the ph d they realized that academia might be too slow for me and that’s when I joined an incubator out in Seattle called the invention science fund ah where.

    Tony Pan: Ah, was essentially a deep tech and incubator that wanted to make breakthrough technologies that can hey help change the world and it was in a model of spending out startup companies. So I joined forces with them and then through that help now Matt but bill gates who became my founding investor.

    Alejandro Cremades: So so so how was that the you know like of joining an incubator program I mean obviously you had you had access or exposure to all of this because you went to Stanford and I’m sure that you had like people that you knew that went at it and and started their own companies now.

    Tony Pan: Yet.

    Alejandro Cremades: How was how was this for you. Did you already haven’t had an idea of the type of company that you wanted to start or was it like more being part of the incubator and that you know that’s how you landed you know on the Patha you’re in right now with a business.

    Tony Pan: I Knew that I wanted to work on climate change going into the incubator ah align with their energy and climate goals as well. But to be clear this deep tech incubator did many different deep technologies not just climate change but I knew roughly that was the sector I wanted to tackle but not the specific problem or technology. So There definitely was a learning experience and a search experience for the right problem within the incubator.

    Alejandro Cremades: I Mean you were throwing you know names of of people that that you were able to to get to back you you know, like right away people like of the caliber like bill gates I mean how did you manage to do that.

    Tony Pan: I I want to say honestly probably a bits of luck I’m probably just impressing the right people who knew the right people ah is ah ah how would I put this? Yeah while I was an incubator I came up with a lot of ideas. As with any innovation most of those ideas were pretty dumb. Ah, which I eliminated myself and then some ideas you do a search and you realize okay, that’s a great idea and someone else is already doing it. But ah I think through that process I’m coming up with like a subset of ideas that was compelling enough that impressed some of the big dogs are the incubator that ah. They they knew bill gates and they basically at some point said hey Tony like we we want you to do something please write this eighty page white paper and then and you know spend 4 hours and we’re going to invite bill here surprise and go and see ah how how he feels about all this and so that’s what I did.

    Alejandro Cremades: Wow wow.

    Tony Pan: A bit of a surprise. Ah that ah that age. But again I think it was just a combination of doing hard work and be impressing the right people who then unlock more people That’s how life work.

    Alejandro Cremades: Um, and I get what? what? what? What is it like to pitch bill gates I mean that’s saying it doesn’t get bigger than that.

    Tony Pan: I think with my age now and more experienced I should have been terrified I I wasn’t really it. It was terrible actually that that day in a sense I also was down with that cold. So like I was really worried about getting him sick because I was like so. Of course, right? It was like me a few other people and bill sitting right next to table and and I was like sneezing I have like tissue paper over and had like this for our for our discussion presentation to get through and like just talking and I d at and the same time so it was a pretty. Ah. Ah, interesting environment I think I did not quite understand at the age of like how big the stakes were so I just kind of did it. But yeah it was. He is a genius that lot is it was sort of clear and so at this point like I’ve I’ve had a fortune of ah interacting with bill for over a decade. And ah, it’s you kind of understand why Microsoft became Microsoft right? yeah.

    Alejandro Cremades: That’s incredible. Yeah know we I’ve had several people on the podcast that have had the opportunity of either receiving an investment from bill gates or working with him you know at Microsoft in just the way that he’s able to. From from from what people have mentioned is the way that he’s able to process information and how fast he’s able to do that and to form an opinion around it. You know is is really remarkable. So I’m sure that that’s something that you have been able to to experience to now now in your case you know you got started in with modern hydrogen. I guess for the people that they are listening. What is the business model. How do you guys make money.

    Tony Pan: So fundamentally our company decarbonizes natural gas into clean hydrogen undoes the at the points of use meaning that we make the hydrogen immediately where the customer already is and so the model really is about selling both the. Hydrogen and also selling the carbon that we’ve pulled out of the natural gas so just going one layer deeper into the tech to explain a bits of the business natural gas is the biggest source one of the biggest sources of energy in the world to give you a sense of scale. Natural gas in the United States is just as big as coal plus nuclear plus hydro hydroelectrical power plus solar plus wind all these different energy sources you hear all over. And they’re fighting each other all of them added together is as big as natural gas so this is why decarbonizing natural gas is important because obviously with that much use of natural gas. It’s one of our biggest sources of co 2 emissions but natural gas is. Chemically what is called chfour it’s one carbon atom for hydrogen atoms and when you burn hydrogen is clean. It just produces clean water so it’s natural gas that’s running through the country’s pipes and energy systems. It’s already mostly clean. It’s mostly clean hydrogen. But there’s just one pesky carbon atom out there. So we essentially.

    Tony Pan: Break ah natural gas into its components carbon and hydrogen and we sell the hydrogen and we sell the carbon we sell the hydrogen as energy so it gets burned and used but it doesn’t emit COTwo anymore and then we sell the carbon actually as a material so it’s not Burned. It does not turn into COTwo is is used as a useful material in the economy. And and we sell that also for money as Well. So that that’s how the technology and business works.

    Alejandro Cremades: And and so far I mean how because obviously I’m sure that this has you know taken a little bit of money to raise and and obviously you guys you know got started with the business you know back then you know around 2015 and since then you guys have done multiple rounds. Prior her to Covid and now in this macro Environment. So How much have you guys raised to late and what has been that experience of raising this money through these different rounds.

    Tony Pan: We have raised a $100000000 across all the rounds and the experience has been I’ll just say interesting in that in deep tech climate companies are trying to do. Breakthrough energy technologies that can change the course of human civilization. It’s very unlike the silicon valley model of fundraising because you’re spending many years in the lab right? like your initial mouthstones is proving technical points technical performance and getting key strategics. To lean in and make investments not necessarily because you’re ready to go to scale or like the technology is mature but because they know also if they make this long-term investment if this tech works oh Changer industry but then the metrics are completely unlike ah traditional ah traditional companies that you see spinning out of Silicon Valley ah silicon valley universities and being funded by traditional vcs right? because there it’s about very quick. It takes no time relative to hardware to make your product and to iterate so it’s all about your It’s all about your go to market strategy your execution. And how you compete whereas for us. It was like spending tens of millions of dollars hiring some of the smartest people in the planet building stuff in the lab and showing hey like there’s this technical Mac Milestone that we’re tracking and then it can reach x that’s a level of validation. Be risking to unlock new values and you go raise money off that.

    Tony Pan: So it’s a very different model.

    Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding now now how has it been to racing through those different cycles as well because I mean the the last run that you guys did you know like was this year you know and I’m sure that there was quite a difference on raising this environment versus raising like 2021 when it was like.

    Tony Pan: Um, yeah.

    Alejandro Cremades: Everyone was raising money and money was everywhere.

    Tony Pan: That’s right? and ah I think to the credit of the energy industry and also frankly what we’re doing is pretty compelling so it was not that hard to raise our round in hoj closed. March or April this year which I think everybody knows right high interest rate environment every other traditional Vc sector is getting hammered but we we had to upround and I think that there’s really 2 factors right? 1 is just generally nothing to do with us but energy and climate tech is doing well. Generally because it’s a mega trend and the energy sector is you? you’ll stop. You’ll stop buying your fancy video game or your your your unsubscribe from some of your saas subscriptions before you stop buying energy. So the energy sector generally is more resilient to economic cycles but also frankly there are major legislations across the world like last year the inflation reduction act passed which is essentially a climate bill. Everybody estimates this. It’s at least a trillion dollar bill over the next ten years in terms of government support for clean energy and so that made the sector overall that we’re in a lot more robust and frankly also our solution is super strategic for our sector so it was actually not that hard to raise our most recent round.

    Alejandro Cremades: So I Guess say when when you were doing this capital races and and educating Investors. So You know you guys are doing this in such an innovative Way. You know what was that Team. You know, ramp up you know, ah to to really get people to understand the way that you guys were doing things and why we’re so different from everyone else.

    Tony Pan: Ah, requires a lot of diligence meetings and of course people visiting onsite with their technical experts. So. It’s actually a very fancy dance because you can think of our investors in 3 categories I’ll put bill gates as his own category just single visionary individual. And we work directly. Ah, where our investment is from his family office ah that he directs. The second group is clean tech vcs who of course to be able to do clean tech. They have a lot of you know ph d level ah industry experts and even professors on staff to help him with technical diligence. And last but not least a huge parts of our investors is strategics. So for example next era which is the largest publicly traded utility in the United States is one of our investors national grid which is actually a rare. Multinational utility. They’re both in Europe and the United States is also one of our investors and of course they have a lot of experience with tech with energy equipment and industry and so the diligence process in addition to vetting it goes to really right? vetting both the technology. How does it work. Can it work. It’s it differentiated. Are you protected by patents but also with the projections of where it’s going to evolve does it have fundamental solid unit economics that can actually provide energy that’s cleaner and cheaper and so it is.

    Tony Pan: It’s kind of interesting in a sense that no one’s really looking at our ah our sales or initial pipeline that that’s important to get a validation but frankly, the energy and clean experts kind of know that energy is such a big market that I have something truly competitive like it will. It will get adoption. It’s The. It’s a core product. How does it work. How well does it work and economics around that is that’s more important So It’s kind of I don’t know I feel sometimes flipped from software in the sense that the the ah making sure the core tech itself is fundamentally good on a good cajectory is more important and in a sense that we can make that work. They’ll trust us to be able to build the sales team or to work with them with our sales team and not be able to market. It.

    Alejandro Cremades: Now Let’s say let’s talk about here about the vision too because I’m sure that you know this was a really big one with with these investors to get them on board if you were to go to sleep tonight and you wake up in a world where the vision is fully realized. What does that world look like.

    Tony Pan: So we would have reduced 10 gigatonns of c o two per year because we have the the carbonized the natural gas grid across the globe. And to give you a sense of ten ten gigat huns of co 2 per year that is 20% of all man-made emissions that’s more emissions than most countries that is as big as that is twice as big as decarbonizing both the airline industry and the shipping industry. So if we decarbonize just distributed forms of natural gas. It’s bigger than twice as big as shipping plus airlines combined. It’s crazy and in addition, if we’re successful, another interesting thing about our technology is that if we pair it with something called biogas. So think we have a lot of agricultural waste. And economy rights and usually they’re rotting and they emit a lot of gas as well and that is’ a useful fuel. But if we use that gas and pull carbon out of it. It’s is equivalent to pulling seal 2 out of the air and putting the carbon into the ground into building material. So it’s actually repairing the atmosphere. It’s it’s reducing the c o two that we’ve already emitted to atmosphere. This is one of the holy grails of climate change. It’s also called negative emissions and so in in if I wake up in my dream world. We have also done a massive amount of that and actually if one of the few companies have actually started.

    Tony Pan: Repairing all the damage. Ah, we’ve done to the biosphere.

    Alejandro Cremades: So when you got started with the business. It was 2015 and I think that the talk around climate change. You know has definitely accelerated since then and and you got also consciousness. You know people are more conscious around this problem. How do you think that that consciousness has helped you guys.

    Tony Pan: Yeah, yeah.

    Alejandro Cremades: To ah, perhaps accelerate things and and be able to realize where you want it to be.

    Tony Pan: Just being honest us because I know there’s a lot of entrepreneur entrepreneurs on hearing this like it was hard man when we founded a company. It was what it’s called the cli tech winter ah Obama during the obama years. There was some big government push but it kind of failed. Was like the 4012 where there was a lot of Climatemetech investment but those didn’t work out so the whole industry crashed generally and so there were basically nobody like nobody in Silicon Valley or investors looking to make investments in climate change. We were very lucky to get bill gates. He was one of the very few individuals. Had a long term view here but like the first actually the first few rounds were much harder and ah but things started changing I’d say in the last three years out of our 7 year journey so far where I mean frankly I think. And climate change and its damaging impacts become worse and worse and that kind of freak people out and finally there was momentum to do something about it right? like the the 2015 paris climate accords the first big climate accord with the whole world signing on they they had all these commitments that by 2050 they know we need to reduce lco 2 to keep the temperature ah increased not exceeding c that was twenty fifty it’s 2023 man we have already hits c this year and so I think that it’s sort of a sad thing about like the the fact that how bad how bad things have gone got on climate.

    Tony Pan: Finally mobilized companies and governments into action and so in the past few years. Not only have we seen phenomenal government support in the United States inflation reduction act you can probably argue the most generous supports and subsidy is for clean hydrogen. So let’s help their business but even before the subsidy we’re starting to get traction with companies. Because the company sort of saw the saw the lining right? like there’s the big esg movement and there’s some controversy around that but the outcome is pretty clear. It became easier for companies to finance their green solution versus the fossil fuel solution. There’s essentially a spread and a financing costs and that has direct economic and dollar impact. So. Companies started to want to buy green and invest green. So in the last three years things have become a lot more easy and it’s like a mega trend you can just see this accelerating.

    Alejandro Cremades: Um, I mean and but probably for the people that that that are listening to I mean know you think it same. It’s it’s kind of a alarming. What’s going on and you are at the forefront of this. So I mean do you think we still have a shot of ah turning things around or not.

    Tony Pan: Because I’m trained as a scientist and try to give very accurate statements I know entrepreneurs are supposed to be optimistic and I’ll be like it. It depends on your bar I I think well well I think we’re talking up. We’re gonna miss all the big climate goal as a civilization that we set. But we’ve also mitigated the worst case scenario. So I think we’re probably going to end up at like C or something like that and a lot of people are going to suffer is gonna be massively damaging but we are fortunately due to all the efforts of of folks I can. But you know the solar wind this solar industry wind industry. The new hydrogen industry electric cars. Ah like we have mitigated the armagedon scenario I’m very sure that like the where armageddon is not going to pass now because of the momentum and the progress in this space. So it’s still gonna be like a billion people suffering. There’ll be. Migrants poring over borders lot of bad stuff’s going to happen. But ah, it’s like we have prevented human extinction with the progress of clean tech.

    Alejandro Cremades: I Mean do you think we we came close.

    Tony Pan: no no I think the I it’s high sciences. Twenty Twenty right you have the exponential decrease in price of solar I think I was a lot more nervous ten years ago Len now. Yeah.

    Alejandro Cremades: Oh yeah and up gettingdding no kidding. So It’s I can say now you know 2 for for what you guys are doing and for the way that you have in build a business. You know how have you guys gone around. You know for for really putting the right people around you for Modern Hydrogen I Mean how have you guys gone about recruiting like what are what is typically the talent that you guys are seeking for for an initiative like this I mean obviously you know like for some of those say startups. It’s all about the engineering team I mean.

    Tony Pan: He.

    Alejandro Cremades: Who are the people that you needed to get first and then how have you guys thought about building the team you know around the business.

    Tony Pan: For us as engineers and scientists at least for most of company history. Every function is important but since due to the nature of what we do right building breakthrough tech think this is mechanical engineers electrical engineers material scientists physicists. Ah. We have but I’m very proud of our team. We have some of the smartest people in the world. But I also say like that. The soft factor is really important I think ah we have a pretty pretty darn good company culture. It was quite intentional. Took like the first two years to get right? But ah, you need that magic mix of.

    Tony Pan: And ah, this might be controversial right? but typically like and be people have a lot of quirks and you have to find the right kind of quirks in the sense that we we have like a no no a whole rule and we don’t like people who are entitled and you really need to find like people who are brilliant but are also decent human beings that are very team oriented because. All big things done in a world are done by teams and it doesn’t matter if you have like a genius engineer that is rowing against the ship that doesn’t help so ah so I think getting a group of very smart people about getting them to work together. Ah well was very important for us. Especially since we crossed so many disciplines to make the technology work again quite unlike software engineering we have so many different domains of very different expertise that needed to come together but like for 1 thing I’m proud of like for our team right? if you give someone like some kind of pat on the backup hey like. This was some great result like great progress. Thanks for shipping that like the default reaction of our team is like they’ll be like no no, no, no, no like actually like it wasn’t it wasn’t just me. It wasn’t me like really like you should give the credit to like a or b or c on a team that’s sort of our culture and I think some of that was like us. A little bit of us was us like encouraging it but mostly it was just hiring hiring like good people who are intrinsically like team and outcome motivated and not egotistical.

    Alejandro Cremades: So what? what have you learned around culture tony.

    Tony Pan: And ah innovation culture. Ah so many things but meritocracy is easier than than done you have be very intentional about it meritocracy means the best idea should win regardless of hierarchy right. But the issue is that you will have hierarchy in a company. You. Do you do need to see or you need some decision framework at some point some person makes a call you need to be very intentional about how you break down the barriers ahead so that everybody feels like they’re like camelots roundtable the intern can shut down the idea from the Ceo. Right? based of data and logic. But after that the base been had then one person does make the call and we all March in the same direction. It’s what Amazon calls disagree and commit. So that is very important but beforehand how you actually get people to feel comfortable with speaking up sometimes. Ah. Putting country opinions to their to people to their managers and company. That’s something you have to be very intentional about there’s no time for us to cover all the things we do in our company but like there’s so many things you have to do to break down that intrinsic part dynamic. So people feel comfortable speaking up with their ideas. Ah. And then I think I’ll just one last thing failwell is one of our official company values and it’s sort of crazy to the failure and and in your company values. But if you want to be innovative, you absolutely need to have that environment with psychological safety so people are willing to take risks like having an environment where ah, people can’t fail is.

    Tony Pan: Not only like it’s like actively counterproductive. But of course right? You also don’t want low performers that just consistently screw up. So How do you actually encourage the right kind of risk taking and to reward failure even when ah you want to reward failure when it’s a right kind of risk taking and it just didn’t work out. But of course you do actually need to hold people to standards of well if there’s a dumb risk or you just executed poorly then you do have to have carrot and sticks that Nuance is very hard and you need to get that right? if you want to be very innovative.

    Alejandro Cremades: Wow now, let me ask you this imagine I was to put you into a time machine and I bring you back in time I bring you back to that moment where you were perhaps at the you know incubator the deep tech incuator and and let’s say I had. I give you the opportunity here of going back in time and whispering to your younger self one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why giving what you know now. Tony.

    Tony Pan: A touric faster and I would like to turn back the time machine and to my college days and also say don’t skip all your humanities classes. Communications is very important I had learned the hard way man I had I had a lot of time to turn from. Ah.

    Alejandro Cremades: Ah, oh yeah.

    Tony Pan: But you know joke like a social engineer is the one that looks at your shoes when they talk to you and not their own shoes. Ah I had to like do some mental flips but it’s all 2 things iterate quickly. Frankly, the first the first technology vision with all the details and your first go to market strategy. Are going to be wrong. It was wrong for us, but not a completely wrong, but you going you’re going to have to iterate and it the speed of iteration is critical in a startup I’m absolutely convinced. You need to think a lot about how how you how do you just learn quickly. Ah be more mentally flexible and like be able to say okay now’s the time to switch switch. Ah, bits of gears and and try something new. Ah second piece to that communication piece right? again. All big things in the world are done by teams and it’s not just your team within the company you need to convince investors your customers on on this new vision has never existed before and it’s about. Winning hearts and minds to roll in the same direction.

    Alejandro Cremades: I mean I think that that’s incredibly profound that I’m sure that so many people that are listening. You know are going to be. You know, really touched by everything that you’ve shared here with us Tony I guess for. Those that are listening now and that you know would love to reach out and say hi. What is the best way for them to do so.

    Tony Pan: Ah I think our website has some reach out for but ah my emails Tony.pan at Modern hydrogen.com and I’ve given up like there’s most of my emails are spam anyways. But ah I do look I did look very carefully at my email. It’s a religion. Ah, so that’s the way to reach out to to me. But yeah, ah, a lot of people have helped me along the journey and so I’m very happy to pass it forward.

    Alejandro Cremades: You see enough there and and and and what ah what an amazing interview and that I’ve had the pleasure here. You know to enjoy and I’m sure that our listeners you know have really you know and I’m sure that they are incredibly inspired by everything that you shared Tony thank you so much. Really taking the time and being here with us. It has been an honor to have you with us on the dealmaker show today. Thank you.

    Tony Pan: Thank you for the opportunity.

    *****

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