Neil Patel

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Timmu Toke started his first business at 20 years old while still in business school. He has since raised over $70M for his avatar startup, Ready Player me, attracting funding from top-tier financiers like HartBeat Ventures, Konvoy Ventures, Erick Calderon, and Sebastian Knutsson.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • The steps to running an efficient fundraising process
  • The future of the metaverse and avatars
  • How to build relationships with investors


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For a winning deck, take a look at the pitch deck template created by Silicon Valley legend, Peter Thiel (see it here) that I recently covered. Thiel was the first angel investor in Facebook with a $500K check that turned into more than $1 billion in cash.

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About Timmu Toke:

Timmu brings a life-long passion for entrepreneurship, having founded his first company when he was 16. By 17, he had built and managed a team of active salespeople. Before co-founding Wolfprint, Timmu acted as Managing Partner for an Estonian clothing brand. Timmu studied Business Management at Estonian Business School and software development at the Estonian IT College.

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Connect with Timmu Toke:

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show so very exciting entrepreneur that we have today with us I mean we’re gonna be talking about building scaling financing. But most importantly, we’re gonna be talking about iterating iterating for 9 years I mean incredible. This story I mean very inspiring but we’re gonna be. You know, sharing here with you all today. So without far ado, let’s welcome our guests today timu talkka welcome to the show. So originally born in Stonia so ah, give us a little a line of I walk through memory lane. How was life growing up there.

Timmu Toke: Thank you, Thank you? I’m very happy to be here.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, yeah, I’m born in Essonia in a small city with 40000 people. Not really a city. Um, so that’s that’s where where I grew up and school and so forth. Um, and and then yeah, um, you know what? the university in Estonia as well. So. Is a very kind of techd driven country generally even though on on a government level and then we have a lot of startups. Of course think we have almost 10 unicorns for Estonia and like telling de capita is like 508000 people so it’s a lot of like um, startup sort of stuff going on there which was great. Um, and yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow.

Alejandro Cremades: Now Now in your case you did a combination of business and computer science. So first and foremost how did you get into gaming and computers and then why did you think or why did you thought at that point that it will be a good idea to blend it with business.

Timmu Toke: That’s that that’s where it is.

Timmu Toke: Um, yeah.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, so um, you know I started playing games when I was a kid and my first kind of business or hustle was selling runescape gold to other kids in school Runscape is a game and so gonna have the virtual currency and virtual digital assets. The the real value of those hazards in in the real world was kind of obvious from from that from that period. Um, so and then like I was always always interested in like kind of starting company or or like building something and tech and games and that was all like I was interested in that my parents were entrepreneurs as well. So. That’s kind of like so that’s where the business part comes from and then of course tech has been interesting computers games and that’s why I went to computer science to start and then business. Yeah, but I started the company at 20 so it was like all.

Alejandro Cremades: Now.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, the the schools were kind of concurrent with running the company or science company.

Alejandro Cremades: But you had the advantage obviously of seeing your parents you know, go through the entrepreneurial journey themselves. So what did you get out of that because I’m sure that you saw them going through the apps and the downs of of the journey.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, So yeah, my parents like did their like small entrepreneurs small business owners I Saw the hustle I Saw the drive I saw just them like you know going out and doing stuff and I was really proud of that as a kid you know my. Thought it took me to you know like ah like ah um, whatever lawyer Notary. What is it the and to sign in here start a new company like you know I could like brainstorm a name for his new company and like it was like thats really cool that got me really excited to like start something and it felt like natural not like um. Um, scary and so I remember myself being very excited to you know, become an entrepreneur or build ah build a business and tech since a very early age and I think that comes from like the entrepreneurship tech part part comes from Pratz The tech part definitely doesn’t so I’m not sure where that comes from. But. But yeah, entrepreneur parents are definitely um, the great and they know what it you know what it takes and what it feels like so they were quite supportive in that in restarting and then you know trying it out.

Alejandro Cremades: Now now obviously that that definitely you know like allows you to to to have that in the blood to certain thing now in in in in your case you got started pretty early as you were saying at 20 years old you were still doing business school when the idea popped in of.

Timmu Toke: Um, yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: Of building a company now. It has been nine years in the making you know obviously multiple iterations there is four cofounders too. So I guess how did you really get into it and how did the band you know of the cofounders come together too.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, so first like just for background. You know the thing we’ve always been building is avatars for virtual worlds we saw nine years ago that people are spending more and more time in virtual worlds in games and so forth and that trend has definitely been true. But the last nine years and it will be true for the next decades to come people will spend more time in virtual worlds through we r to a r to just like desktops phones and so forth and avatars are a huge part of that that experience virtual experience. You are an avatar in the virtual world. So they they kind of need to have a great avatar. And also travels across virtual worlds increases a lot over time and what we do with ready permi is we give you an amateur that travels across thousands of virtual worlds and kind of becomes your metaverse identity. But that idea has evolved over time and where we started from nine years ago decision was basically you know we saw oculus acquired by Facebook and it’s like okay vr is probably going to happen. It’s going to be social. It’s going to make it even more you know, immersive and cooler to spend time in virtual worlds and avats are a big part of that. Let’s start a company to solve davater part of the kind of vr yeah thing. Um, and then then we started from hardware building hardware scanners hundreds of cameras scant tens of thousands of people um and then you know drop the hardware business use the database we collected and built like a deep learning solution that would take a single selfie convert that into different styles of avaturs.

Timmu Toke: Um, automatically and when that was like an Sdk. We started selling to all kinds of companies. Our customers will like tencent by way ha to c water phone h and m many others and um, ended up kind of licensing the Sdk. But you know custom building the avaer system and I was tech around that so like bodies and hair and like animation systems and all that stuff we built it from scratch for like dozens of companies. Um and and like that was over like 4 years and like we graduated the product and we made it better and easier and so forth. And we learned what it takes to build the great outer system. We learned really deeply understood understood what it takes to build an outer system and and what developers need in an outer system and then after that 4 years of actually being in cash flow positive growing business. We dropped that enterprise part of the business and like. Just like basically you know went back to scratch right back to 0 and we took all the knowledge and the tech we had built and built it kind of a platform around that so but ready permi is like an end to end developer tool solution that gives you ah that gives you an outdoor system. You can integrate with your game. And we went from like 0 customers to now 4000 in like two and a half years so and that’s been very successful and we raised like series a and seriesp during that time. But anyways and they kind of that up there be many infection points in this nine years but the main thing is we kept billing.

Timmu Toke: Ituating every year we had you know a new product or a new version of the product. The world keep kept moving to the direction we wanted it to move it. You know in I guess so like people spend more time games I just became more of a thing in a kind of a. General culture with bitmoji and like meoji and like there’s a lot of like signs that the word is moving in a direction where you thought it will move. Ah, ah but the time was not quite right for like an explosive growth until you know like three years ago um but we kept building and. Game experts experts in something that now is very valuable. Um, but wasn’t obvious that will be valuable by then you know and and that’s kind of like we made a big bet on the market. Um, and I think that’s kind of like a good thing to do as ah as a young entrepreneur.

Alejandro Cremades: Now.

Timmu Toke: Like you can afford to take a bet on a market and kind of wait longer and grind too and like become an expert and and then like over being an older and and kind of but more experienced entrepreneur you might want to go into a place where you compete with execution. Over you know, kind of like taking a wild bet on a market and and winning that bet but anyways went to another.

Alejandro Cremades: So so so for so for the people that are listening in to really get it. What ended up being the business model of the company. How do you guys make money. Yeah.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, so ah, 12 for background. You know how games make money generally is by selling virtual goods and assets games use it free. Most of revenue is generated from accessories and stuff you can buy in the game.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah.

Timmu Toke: An avatar accessories an outer fashion and Avaar stuff is one of the main drivers of revenue in games so like fortnite makes $5000000000 a year selling outer fashion. Um, and that’s also like our business model is to sell avaur skins and f these accessories and take a revenue share on that. So we are working with 4000 companies that use our ava to tech and our our out our out or tools in their games whenever they sell any skins and f these and so forth. We take a revenue share on that and we also make those assets travel across worlds. So if you buy a skinner an outer fashion item in 1 game. You can use the across the entire network. So actually it becomes kind of your avatar asset. Not just an investment into a game. You might not play in three months so the goal is to kind of really make a build a bigger market around avataries by opening up the market and connecting all the kind of separate closed game economies together.

Alejandro Cremades: Now 1 thing that is saying interesting here is the and you are alluding to it. Ah you got to keep it iterating the world keeps moving and hopefully you know you move in the direction in which you had hoped for but in your guys’ case I mean at 1 point you were even generating cash flow. And you literally pivoted the business you know and went into like again from nothing to build something that you thought you know you had a clear you know, ah assumption that where things were heading but but how do you How did you guys get to that point because when you build something from nothing and it’s generating cash flows then. You know, a lot of people may feel like hey you know I think that we are into something here.

Timmu Toke: Yeah I mean it. It did feel feel so um, but um, you know we were pretty kind of like straightforward. We were kind of like clear with what we want to do and what we want to do is not to build the business that is just okay. And generates capital and you know whatever let’s take a lifestyle business eventually. We want to build something that is like massive and changes in industry industry and becomes ah something really big like 10 are hard to build in our company and just the business we were doing before which had like the licensing kind of like a backend service.

Timmu Toke: Some like service component to it. You had to build the outer systems like it would have wouldn’t that that was not the way to get there. You know so it was not something we wanted and although it generated decent like it was growing and it was casual positive and so forth. But um. Yeah, it wasn’t something that was satisfying for us and also like the goal was to build an outer that travels across Worlds and back then we were just custom building out their systems for each different game. They were all closed to didn’t really like fulfill what we wanted to do in the world. Um, but yeah, it was not.

Timmu Toke: It was not um, it was a little scary to drop it. That’s for sure. Yeah answer. Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: And and and ah hear you now there’s 4 4 cofounders and oranges. Well we’ll we’ll edit this piece. We’ll we’ll have the audio engineer edit it. So there’s 4 cofounders of you. They are in the business now and and since the beginning. And you’ve gone through all these multibody iterations and obviously when things are not going so well, you know you tend to point fingers you know like the egos get in the way things like that. Obviously you guys have been iterating for a long time until you were able to turn a corner. How were you guys able to keep things together. Between the 4 of you.

Timmu Toke: Um, yeah I mean I think like um, you know like a lot of founders I’ve seen they they try to avoid conflict and they try to be like super politically correct with each other sometimes and like not sometimes they try to like it tried to like so be like nice and like you know, avoid Conflict. We’re like the reverse you know we’re like we can yell at each other easily we can like have conflicts and everything gets resolved as it comes up, you know and nothing bubbles up. Nothing kind of like stays. Whatever under the carpet until it explodes and I think that’s kind of really the key. Like being able to kind of trust each other enough to you know, be able to have a conflict and have ah you know, discuss things and resolve things as they rise over just trying to try to look nice until like you just can’t anymore and it blows up I think that’s kind of like the the key thing. Um. But yeah you you have to have have to have the right people have they have different skills that kind of complement each other and make each other better Obviously um, in our case, it was just luck that that happened Um, but yeah, it’s it’s It’s not easy, but you need to solve problems as they arise. And let let them bubble up I Think that’s the main thing.

Alejandro Cremades: So so in your case after for so long in the desert trying to find promised land. You know how what was that day like where you realized hey guys I I think we were into something here.

Timmu Toke: Um, again.

Timmu Toke: Um, yeah yeah I mean like with ready per me. Um, which was it’s it’s a platform product. Um, it was like quite obvious from the very early kind of like just putting it out like we started. Getting a lot of inbound from developers developers were tracking us down in different like social media personal social media if we were not answering to them. They were like super eager super eager to do to produce a product was very organic. You know like we we have a single junior marketing person still and we have 4000 customers right? So like. The product was like incredibly it has a very incredible product market fit. Um, but at at first they were still like okay like is that real because after all this time of like not having great product market fit. You’re like you know, suspicious which is good. And then it’s like you you validate to test more you see okay people actually launching like there’s even more stuff coming up and it was like instantaneously it worked. You know you could see it worked and and it just could get getting bigger and then it went from like 1 customer to like what are 30 customers in. Six months or so which was like cool and then went for 30 customers to a thousand customers in the next twelve months and then now this year we went from a thousand to like 4000 so far. So anyways, it’s been like the core kind of like product just worked really well and it was great timing as well.

Timmu Toke: Like it was like the first month of the pandemic or the second month of the pandemic or something when we launched a lot of people were looking into vr meetings virtual events like that was our first market with ready pemy and then it went from there to like more general vr stuff than games and like you know education now it is like all over the place. Um. Yeah, great timing. Great product. You could tell there’s something special about this as soon as it went out. Um, and then we just get invited in like different things and um, but I think it really became obvious the thing like you six to nine months months in I was like okay this is not going to like. Die out like the kind of growth and stuff. It’s going to just kind of get crazier. Um, yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: And and for the fund racing how much capital have you guys raised to date. so so 74,000,000 so how has it been the experience of racing that 74000000

Timmu Toke: I’m 74000000 I think yeah 74 minutes

Timmu Toke: Um, well we raised like three point three million in the first seven years and I raised like almost 7 or whatever seventy I guess then 7 to something million in the last ah year so in 2 rounds. Ah yeah, so it’s been a.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow.

Timmu Toke: It’s been interesting. The first 3 point 3 were like you know several seed rounds trying to survive trying to somehow raise some money to like pay for the bills and also like running a very inefficient fundraising process speaking with 100 investors like you know like nine months or something like that. So I think like the the main thing is always. You know you have to have a business that is fundable. Um, and that’s like like that’s just like that’s what you need to have to raise money from video investors. Um. But if you have a great business then it’s also very important to run an efficient fundraising process and I think the kind of the mindset. The way we change things um, really affected also the outcome and how we run the processes like we have like basically you can you can think of it like um sprints. So you have like let’s say a two week sprint first week you go out to as many image as you can speak with like 3 4 funds per day is pitch to as many people as possible second week you follow up and you try to get the term sheets I with the first week kind of people and that was like a bold market process. Maybe now it’s two weeks and two weeks I haven’t been out fundraising in the last like few months but anyways so like running an efficients process and trying to really push people to close at the same time and give you a term sheet at the same time is extremely important like series. A. We got like 7 term sheets in like two weeks so ah so that’s that’s incredibly incredibly important because that.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow.

Timmu Toke: Like you go out and you speak with a lot of people they can message feel it they know you’re out there. You’re like running a great process. You’re speaking with a lot of people. You will get funded. They’re afraid that if they don’t they want to do it. They have to move fast you know and then that that makes that that create the right to dynamic and that’s extremely important and like that’s the kind of the thing that. Like phones are missing the most like everybody know how to make a deck and like all that stuff but running an efficient process like preparing a spreadee with all the investors you want to get in touch with having names of people that will introduce you like doing the pre-work on the messrs understanding who they are. If. They don’t know you at all. It might make sense to have a coffee with them or like random like a chat like a few months before or a month before to get to know them and also and to get to know you so when you hit the process like you start start your process. Everyone’s in a similar level to knowing you otherwise you get term sheets from people that know you well. You know in a few days and then the other ones that you might want more that know your less you know like kind of our won’t get their recipe. So anyways, there’s um, like messed up 2 topics missed together 2 topics at the moment but process.

Alejandro Cremades: So so so so really quickly really quickly. They are timo because I think that this is very important and there’s a lot of people listening that that are probably fundraising now or thinking about fundraising. Let’s let’s let’s say a double click on what you’re saying. Let’s say you know you Bill Bing the

Timmu Toke: Man.

Alejandro Cremades: Building the relationships you know with all these say investors. The people that you didn’t know you had the coffee as you were saying. Let’s say you have let’s say a list with a hundred investors and now you know you feel it’s time to activate the process.

Timmu Toke: Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: How would you go about that like in a clear example with those 100 investors how would you execute.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, so I would split those 100 and messageors into tiers and like 1 tier is practiced here which is a message you don’t really want but they are like relevant enough to have a chat with the second tier is people that are good and relevant. That you’ll be okay and happy to work with but they are not like great and then third tier is they want people you really want. Um, so when’re talking about the process I would take this first two weeks of the first kind of sprint to speak with the people you don’t want at all so you just go out to the funds that are like meh you know. And and you speak with them. You run through the exact same process and you learn you kind of learn to pitch better. You learn to understand what the questions are you make your plan watertight. You edit your pitch tack you understand which points are clicking and you really get into their mode. You know of like going out and then fundraising and and that’s that’s. First set of investors then you take the top top topic message. You really want to get as a second sprint of two weeks that’s say um and then you go out there and you do the same thing but you’re experienced already you you have two weeks of like pitching behind you, you have done it for dozens of times. You know all the questions and you go out to the top list and then after the top list is done. You should have a bunch of term sheets already. But if you don’t then you add the last group which is the good it messes and that’s the good investes are if the second group nobody closes or if they start dragging around dragging along too long.

Timmu Toke: And you add the third group to kind of create pressure for the top group and to have a potentially a good invest give you your term sheet if you don’t get any good ones from their second spring. So that’s kind of like um, the process like ideally but always like it never never plays out quite like that right like it depends. You might get term sheets from the first group and you’re like oh shit make sure you take them. You might you know like many things can change like you can you can get you know so getting so many term sheets that you understand that the op to out to topic. Master is quicker. Um, anyways, you edit it as as you go, but that’s the that’s the default process. Um, and like running an efficient process like that we just put you but in a best position to optimize for the best outcome you can get with the business you have today like you can’t you can’t get a great investor by just finding a great process like you need to have a great company as well. But it it optimizes the the terms you can get. And the quality of investors you can get and obviously the speed you can get is done with um so it’s it’s like a great thing to do and most like investor most founders that haven’t really um, gone through the process many times they just like. Like oh yeah, and they read somewhere. It takes six months to raise around like yeah I could take six months like and it’s it’s taken us like nine months as well. So it’s definitely possible but then and then they go out. They speak with ten ten funds and they’re like but that they know and then like 3 of them are like oh this is pretty interesting. Let’s have another chat in like ten days

Timmu Toke: And then they’re like oh yeah, there’s 2 funds I’m sure some of them. You know they got to do it and then you might ask like 3 more interests per week and like yeah it does take six months and then investors doesn’t there’s no motivation for them to invest today because they know that you’re like kind of like not going to close it like anytime soon versus you go out there. You you run a in a vision process like you’re like hey like I’m going out I’m going to close this round. You know in a short amount of time if you want to be involved. You have to be fast you know and then like if they do want to be involved. They will be fast so and then like if you’re in the process with a lot of people at the same time you can be like. Hey guys I’m starting to get parking meetings I have a few party meetings next week if you want to move like now it’s time to move right? and then you can like you can you can control the time and you can only do it if you have competition if you have a lot of people involved and and that’s why you know running an efficient process is such an important part that people really miss.

Alejandro Cremades: I love it I love it and I think that you’re right on now in your case, you went from Estonia to l a from l a back to Europe from Europe now New York City how do you think that location you know matters because.

Timmu Toke: Um, yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: Your guys’ case I mean recently you closed you know Andress in Horowitz probably one of the best investors. Yeah.

Timmu Toke: Um.

Timmu Toke: Yes, the best semester for us for sure. Um, yes, location does matter I mean I think um first you need to be where your business is or where your customers are um and you know you need to optimize for success with your location. So not being in the optimal place in the world for your business shows investors and everybody that you’re not taking this seriously right? like you’re not, you’re not optimizing for for the thing that you’re saying you’re optimizing for which is your business. And like it depends obviously people so like circumstances are are different people have families I’m young I don’t have kids so it’s it’s easier for me. But if you show that you are committed to be in the best place you think for your business that is a big sign and that is ah just a great thing to do. Um. If you’re european for example and you raise money from your european vcs but us Vc as well and you’re based in the us like european vcs probably have a ah slight fear that you have kind of you know you are in touch with us vcs and they might give you better terms. And love it stuff like that. So I think that that does play a role as well. But mostly. It’s just a commitment like are you are you willing to come? yeah, be fully committed and be where you have to be to optimize for the success of our business. Um I can tell you for me. It’s not Estonia. Yeah that’s that’s not the best place and to be.

Alejandro Cremades: Now.

Timmu Toke: New York is the place because it’s between Europe and the us like west coast so I can I can travel anywhere easily from New York I can have calls like 7 hour time difference with europe I wake up already. It’s very manageable compared to West Coast for example, which has a little bit more like kind of our industry people. But it’s just impossible with the management team from there. 10 hours so like New York is an optimal place for me to be to optimize for the success of my company and and making the decision and going to the pain of like moving and stuff like that shows that you’re for real and you have to make a lot of you have to make sacrifices in the journey.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding no kidding no kidding now now imagine you were to go to sleep tonight and you wake up in a world where the let’s say the vision.

Timmu Toke: Yeah, um.

Alejandro Cremades: Of ready player me is fully realized what does that world look like.

Timmu Toke: Yeah I mean you wake up in the morning you grab a cup cup of coffee you jump into a vr meeting with your with your you know with your team and maybe discuss ah an evening Presentation. You’re going to do on a virtual conference. Everyone’s wearing an avatar. You look at your hand you see a virtual watch Youbot from a you know craft ah virtual Handmaker a watchmaker as an nftd then you maybe walk to work. You know, um.

Timmu Toke: You know, ah buy some cool Niky Virtu sneakers from an online marketplace wear on your avatar go to our virtual boxing class with your friend of the end afternoon and know go to a virtual evening a virtual event in the evening give a presentation go to a virtual afterparty. And then meet through physical people at your home maybe in your family as well and you use the same exact amatear across all these experiences you buy stuff or out there. It works across your virtual experience from a team meeting to a game you might play or a virtual boxing class to a. Presentation you give on ah on a virtual. Um you know stadium or whatever, a whole presentation hall event hall. Um, anyways, you have the same exact amateur across your virtual experience and the metaverse is not 1 platform or 1 game and the metaverse not controlled by one company. It’s built by all those different kind of businesses that build events that build virtual boxing classes and this is all like a network. It’s more like the internet where you can navigate between different pages and you can navigate between different virtual worlds and you have a consistent consistent Avaar. You can travel that you can travel with and and the metaverse is more like the internet than. You know, ah a big kind of virtual world control by 1 company and like our mission is to push the world towards an open meverse which is not own by one company or a few companies but it’s it’s built by millions of developers and and we do that by building outers to travel across worlds and kind of connect the different virtual worlds closer together. Um.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, that’s amazing I mean that that definitely you know sounds and looks like a beautiful world. So timu. So imagine now was able to put you into a time machine and I bring you back in time and I bring you back perhaps to that time where you were in Estonia in business school. You know, thinking about like well you were going to launch.

Timmu Toke: Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: You know of your own and you were able to to sit down that younger self and give that younger self one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be why given what you know now.

Timmu Toke: Um.

Timmu Toke: um yeah um I think like there have been a few like I mean first thing I was just just keep going just keep improving just be better than you were yesterday today. Just like that’s one of our writers by the way just like grow. Be better improve learn iterate like all that stuff I think the other thing that really like changed the game. A little bit was just being very realistic about things. Um I think as a very as a twenty year old I was like no this. This is how the way it works I’m sure this is how the way works I’m not going to even like try to understand how the world works I’m just going to say this is how the world works and I’m going to build this thing and I’m not going to like be critical about it. You know, like kind of like a red distortion field. Not practical in real life I think. it’s very practical like it’s very necessary to understand the reality like what is your? What are your strengths like as as a person as a team as a product like what are your weaknesses like how can you improve yourself or can you improve your product like what is the reality of the situation like yeah about yourself, you have to be able to take feedback. And have to be able to process information without emotions or like lower emotions to understand the reality and I think that’s like the the kind of very conscious choice I made at some point is like to um to to do that and strive towards just understanding things over like.

Timmu Toke: Being blind to things because I want them to be in a certain way and like that’s just an obvious thing obviously but it’s obvious thing obviously um, but it it wasn’t obvious for me when I was 20 and and when we made that shift and we really then we then you can really really start learning and then you can see really start its writing. And understanding the world. A little bit better every every every day and if you do that given enough time like you’ll you’ll actually understand some things about the world at least hopefully and and you’ll be a better person. You’ll be as a better Ceo or founder. You’ll be a better business and a product and all that stuff and I think that was the main. Main kind of a big learning that really changed the course of our business.

Alejandro Cremades: Amazing Well Timu for the people that are listening. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hi fine.

Timmu Toke: Um, um, um, all my chat of the super like full of stuff at the moment but like I think Twitter is like that like that’s that’s like a low I don’t have email box full. There. So Twitter um, Timu Toka that’s like my name. Um Linkedin is my like strongest platform but I’m like just this is how like 2000 minutes there so I’m unlikely to get to them anytime soon. Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: Amazing! all right? Well hey timu thank you so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been an honor to have you with us today.

Timmu Toke: Yes, thank you so much.

* * *
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Neil Patel

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