Sean Duffy has already raised hundreds of millions of dollars for his enterprise health company that is blending technology and medicine together. The venture, Omada Health, attracted funding from top-tier investors like Wellington Management, Empede Capital, aMoon Fund, and Civilization Ventures.
In this episode, you will learn:
- How big Omada Health is today
- How to grow yourself as a leader
- The importance of hiring great managers
- How your role as a CEO changes
- Company culture
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/
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About Sean Duffy:
Sean believes that behavioral medicine is at an incredible tipping point of innovation thanks to technology and design. He holds a BS in Neuroscience from Columbia University, was an MD/MBA candidate at Harvard, and formerly worked for Google and IDEO.
Connect with Sean Duffy:
Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:
Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the dealmakerr show. So super excited about the guests that we have today I mean he’s been building scaling and financing for over eleven years his company so imagine all the lessons learned but quite the rocket ship. So. Without further ado. Let’s welcome our guests today Sean Duffy, welcome to the show. So originally born in Colorado so give us a little of a walk through memory lane. How was life growing up.
Sean Duffy: Thank you all the hunt happy to be here.
Sean Duffy: Yeah I mean Colorado, it’s funny. It’s an amazing state if haven’ve been there I recommend it I think to be honest I took it for granted. Um, it’s just stunningly beautiful. So I grew up in Colorado springs um, you know, ah fell in love with technology. It was always kind of a computer geek by heart but like science as well and um. I you know had a great childhood there and then went off to school ah in New York city
Alejandro Cremades: That’s amazing. So how was I would say that change because New York City is is a city that you know there’s a lot of of of activity and intensity. So was it like ah a big you know, kind of like shock for you.
Sean Duffy: You know it was in a great way. So I went to Columbia University and that’s a great school if you want to explore a city. You know it’s not the best school if you want to go to big football games. Um, but I you know I had an an awesome time there I did. You know I had a lot of misconceptions about New York which was fun to ah you know, get rid of ah you know seeing it seeing it and living there. You know for for 4 years
Alejandro Cremades: Now out of whole thing Sean Neuroscience I mean that’s say that sounds a little bit advanced. So why? neuroscience.
Sean Duffy: Um, yes I mean neuroscience ah is was just super interesting I think it’s a neat combination of psychology and biology. You know, which was one of the things I was most attracted to and it’s just like it’s ah it’s a remarkable how the brain works I mean we’re seeing it right now in the intersection between you know, computation and neural nets and. You know, kind of mapping to how brains work and processing you know vision for things like self-driving cars. So it felt like an area where there’s going to be extraordinary amount of innovation. Um, and and 1 of the big mysteries where there’s a lot yet to learn about biology.
Alejandro Cremades: Now you you you always had that the idea of perhaps med school. You know me school was in the background but you decided to put that on hold and and then explore you know the labor market you know and and going into Google so how did you land in Google what was that experience like.
Sean Duffy: Yes, that’s right? So I graduated in 2006 I studied neuroscience did all my pre-med requirements. But it was always kind of a computer geek at heart and 2006 was just this remarkable moment in Silicon Valley um so you know end up feeling like I had to either pick tech or healthcare. Um, it looked at job opportunities saw a job at Google that looked pretty interesting so you know went off there and worked there for a couple of years and I think I pretty quickly realized that the world was perhaps not as binary as I thought and there you know there may be a way to blend. Um, you know tech and medicine is some capacity.
Alejandro Cremades: And obviously you land in harvard to do that but not only med school. Also the Mba I mean talking about complicating yourself with a ton of study. Ah.
Sean Duffy: Yeah that’s right? So I enrolled in Harvard’s mdmba program thinking that I do something in tech needs health care I wasn’t quite sure what um and then you know in this kind of funny chain of events they as you progress through that curriculum require you take an internship that blends business in medicine and. From my time in Silicon Valley and then some people at ideo so came out there um to to spend what I thought was gonna be a summer but you know turned into um, turned into amada.
Alejandro Cremades: And tell us about ideo. What was what was the deal with ideo and why did you decide that that was the best way to to proceed.
Sean Duffy: But yeah, so I mean I do if the listeners aren’t familiar with is an amazing design consultancy and you know it’s a great group of people that think very very expansively about products or services. Um, what I always say kind of is a. First principles level of like how does it literally fit into the person’s home and their life and their context and you know emotional circumstances and is very kind of a human meets meets tech meets experiences approach to you know, developing product and the one that you know actually mapped quite well to neuroscience and psychology. Some of theirs is interested in and um. So that’d be fun to to think through how you could apply some of that skillset to healthcare and you know I knocked on the door was like hey have you ever had a medical student intern. They’re like no and I was like what would you consider it and like sure. So so just ah came out.
Alejandro Cremades: Ah, ah, that’s so cool and now now obviously as they say I ideas you know they take time to incubate. You know they’re like doorrmant. You know there. We don’t even know that they are there but there are certain you know events that really trigger you know us and push us over the edge to really you know, bring them to life and that moment of screw it. Let’s do it now. But I Guess. Being at idea too. You know that perhaps you know, allowed you to to get you know that influence of of wanting to do something of your own as Well. And in fact, that’s how you came up with with your baby. So So tell us about you know how did the idea you know incuate and what was that process of really bringing it to life.
Sean Duffy: Yeah, yeah, Absolutely so you know did lead to a amount of Health. So The the quick one lineer and Armada were ah a virtual care company. So think it was like any other provider but we focus on those disease areas where digital can make not just a little bitty difference but an enormous difference in care and outcomes and so for us that’s prediabetes Diabetes Hypertension. You know, musculoskeletal Disease. You know those areas where you need like lots of support between visits and the concept um was really generated with the reflection on where the market was at in 2011 and you know I’d be with my tech friends and you know, kind of early days the fitbits and wearables and I’d be with their medical school classmates and. The 2 worlds thought very very differently. Ah, you know about the power of Digital. So The idea was to build a convergence company that pulled in you know the best technologists and designers but worked to really earn the right to be a proper part of the Healthcare system and focus on specifically what are you trying to achieve with digital and why is it better. Then the current kind of care environment in an In- Personson setting. Um, and so you know that led to our interest in you know Metabolic Disease and prediabetes and you know diabetes risk. Um you know to start and just kind of work to build. You know the you know one of the most evidence-based digital health companies out there.
Alejandro Cremades: Now What was that process of spinning the company out.
Sean Duffy: Um, um, you know that that was just a yeah um, complex. But but very manageable because the wonderful people at ideo and. And kind of neither one of us had done that before so you know there were kind of lessons to learn and things to think through in areas where we saw the same ah you know saw things the same way or as we had to kind of overcome you know differences. But um, you know we we shared a conviction that something like this should and could exist in the world. Ah, and um, you know it was honor to be in a position to work to make it happen.
Alejandro Cremades: So Omala health for the people that are listening what ended up being the business model. How do you guys make money.
Sean Duffy: So we contract with either self-insurd employers or health plans to essentially reimburse a modest services for their employees or their members. Um, and you know think of as like really any other provider. So let’s imagine you have diabetes in a normal care environment. Maybe you’re seeing your dock every six weeks every every six months and you have 15 minute visit to cover a million topics one is your diabetes. Um, you know tomato what happens is we get you a set of you know, hardware and devices we period with an entire care team of a coach a diabetes educator um have kind of a specific curriculum to your needs and just bring you quicker to your diabetes goals in a more simple way. So the revenue model is you know we share that this exists and then we work on the backend to publish all the clinical studies to line with all the guidelines to figure out all the regulatory kind of infrastructure to get it all paid for for you so you never have to pull the credit card. Um, you know it’s all fully covered um and we just want to make sure that diabetes care. Excellent diabetes care is accessible to all you know it’s interesting I didn’t know anything about the business of healthcare.
Alejandro Cremades: And in your case I mean what? what were the early days like for for a company like this.
Sean Duffy: I mean in medical school I never did the Mba piece frankly I didn’t know anything about business. It was kind of on is essentially my first job I mean I was an individual contributor at Google like making 55 k year feeling like I was rich, but but I was um so so I was super green. Um. So the early days of romanmada was like literally every minute I felt like I was developing a new stress ulcer and like trying to just ramp a learning curve I didn’t know what a venture capitalist was I’d never raised any money like I used to get nervous negotiating and ndas. All these things that seem to seem like so comical and silly. Um you know back then so it was really just like. Figuring it out in the early days and like how the heck the healthcare system even worked to imagine a world where we could even commercialize something like this.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, because I mean obviously there is a a ton of regulation. You know as well and all types of restrictions on limitations. So I’m sure it was quite the learning curve and Sean we can we can. We can edit this piece. Don’t worry. Yeah worries.
Sean Duffy: Yeah, you know it’s um, it was quite the learning curve. Okay hold on let me I don’t know what that is let me go figure that out.
Sean Duffy: Okay, there we go sorry about that now knowing. Okay, we.
Alejandro Cremades: All right? We’re good. It was not a fire alarm. Ah all right? good I good. Okay, so so so so for for a company you know in in Healthcare You know there’s obviously a lot of restrictions and and limitations and things like that. So I’m sure that for you was quite the. Learning curve in that regard as well.
Sean Duffy: You know healthcare’ is a very complex place to build a business. Um, and it’s exciting if you really like to learn so you know 11 years in I’m the furthest thing from an expert in how the uhealthcarecare system works like that’s where every single day I like overturn a stone I’m like oh interesting like didn’t. Didn’t know. That’s how that happened um which is you know, really beautiful thing. It is extremely complex and if you don’t really want to think at that systems level. Um, you can fall into traps that um may get you into problems in a couple years that you may not see you know early on. So. And number one tactic when people say well what what are your you know What’s your guidance on how to build an enterprise health company is I kind of share back a belief system that there will never be shortcuts in this space like’re and you know you’ve had companies try to like disrupt from the side and like but but I don’t think that’s. Possible. You have to just get super super smart on how it actually works and figure out how to fit in like that scene in apollo thirteen where you’ve got like the round cotwo in the square hole and you’ve got to kind of connect the 2 with parts on the ship. It’s like. You can fit innovation to the ushealthcare system but bore you have to learn and and actually study the details.
Alejandro Cremades: And I’m sure that also for you navigating the the sales cycle for an enterprise type of operation was also quite the the learning. So why? So what have you learned you know on on really mastering those.
Sean Duffy: Yeah I mean I think the the sales cycles in a risk inverse environment are are long. Um, and so you know number 1 guidance I give to entrepreneurs just you’re not a startup. Don’t call yourself a startup you know Omada was a 6 person company and. You know when I’d introduce myself I’d just call us a digital health company. Um, because it’s it’s very um, unattractive to buy from a startup if you’re kind of one of these big risk averse. Ah you know, payers plans employers. Um, and that’s appropriate because. There is a lot of risk There’s a risk to them in working with a young company so you’ve got to um, find a way to raise the capital to mature your operations and practices um more quickly. Um, you know I think that you know I probably put like a million dollars in our security program far earlier than you would in any other like. You know segment and that’s because like during procurement. Um, ah, you’re going to go through the gauntlet they have to like test your metal is really helpful to be socked to type 2 earlier like so there’s this um ah need early on to from a company standpoint mature your ops. In a way that makes you more ingestible. You know as a partner to these big risk averse organizations so that that I think is one critical thing and and kind of the second is um that don’t expect that you can shorten the sales cycles. Um, there are long sales cycles. You have to just manage the business against it.
Sean Duffy: So when you’re thinking about capital needs kind of your growth your expectations. Um, assume that the sales cycles cannot be shortened and won’t necessarily change and try to just you know ensure that you’ve got kind of cash you need? Um, ah you know you’re setting the targets you need relative to that truth.
Alejandro Cremades: And and for you were talking to you were talking about it earlier I mean capital so how much capital have you guys raised today hey that’s a lot of 0 shun so tell us about you know, like what has been the ah the cycles now of going from one you know round to the next.
Sean Duffy: Um, just under 500,000,000
Sean Duffy: Yeah, know it’s been Ah, it’s been a huge privilege um to just see really all layers of the capital stack you know and how different investors thinking about businesses differently range from literally the first you know Angel check where you know I didn’t know like how to like. You write me a check. Do you wire the money like how does this even mechanically work because someone I was like I was trying to get this advisor was like you know what? this amazing could I invest like sure. So it’s It’s alert just is people and and like you know and people you have nothing of nothing and you have a deck that you look back On. You’re so embarrassed about and um. You know fundamentally I think they just believed in me and you know they saw something kind of the vision we had and you know chose to chose to take an enormous risk and then um you know later on up the Capital Stack. You know gets obviously more financial like. You know we’re getting operating leverage like what’s the long term like even a margin profile the business like what’s like um, you know the?? Ah um, you know of course they still care about vision ad mission. But um, you know it becomes a lot more about kind of the financials and the in the performance and kind of long term cash flow for and and um, you know potential for growth.
Alejandro Cremades: And what about on the early days because I know that they that this serious seat as well as this series a was a little bit bumpy for you guys.
Sean Duffy: yeah yeah yeah I kind of I mentioned that the the um, ah first first thing’s just kind of a truth. You know there is never a straight line into success I’ve never seen it. So you know it’s one of those where as an entrepreneur you want to find a problem that you care so much about that. You just like will be willing to get hit in the face repeatedly and just get right back up and say nope still gonna make it happen still going to make it happen and I think our you know our scene a was kind of one of those moments where um. We had a lot of strategic interest really really early on um, from kind of a large potential customer at such a level that they were interested in perhaps leading our entire series. A um, we’re open to having them an investor. We we kind of wanted to make sure we had a path to stay independent in fulfill our mission. Um, and you know netnet what ended up happening was as we were going from cd to a we had kind of a 6 ix-month protracted you know negotiation and that was very very complex between you know our desires their desires. But you know us wanting to stay independent then you know perhaps you know one and kind of a path to think different be with the business and it um, it really basically blew up our series a and they decided look. We’re going to compete. Um.
Sean Duffy: Ah, and we’re just we’re like okay no you know no problem but then all of a sudden that was going to be a big customer. So like we like lost our capital in our pipeline um pretty quickly and and you know it’s funny. You’re like what do you did I mean like Laura it’s taken so long. We’re like. Like a couple weeks of cash left I mean we’re in a big company. We’re like burning a ton but we’re like kind of at the end there at um, we’re like funding some from our own make accounts to like make payroll and then um, you know we called up some of the seed investors and. Yeah, this was just kind of amazing. There’s some people you know I can’t name but a couple in particular like heard the story and they’re like oh how like how quickly do you need I’ll ah I’ll put another two fifty right now and you’re just like you saved you saved the business. And and not and others were like oh I don’t know. Are you going to have anybody else join too like is this an extension to nowhere and it’s it’s it’s funny you um you reflect on how human you know this is and how you know folks that have conviction and some capital. Um, it can really you know make a dream like omada come true. You know for entrepreneurs and kind of resurrect. You know the vision from you know, very precarious situation. So you know we got we got through it just fine. It was one of those we were like oh no like what are we going to do here.
Sean Duffy: Which which every round of is you know every everyone of has been through because again it doesn’t doesn’t never come easily. That’s correct.
Alejandro Cremades: Now the last round that you guys did was the Series E So obviously big big change. You know as as the company. But more importantly, the corporate structure and perhaps the board and also what have you learned about managing boards to us. You go from one cycle to another.
Sean Duffy: Oh yeah, for sure and that was an area where I had very little visibility. In fact, I you know I think I actually had the wrong belief system in the early days because I’d never seen a board and I’ve never been on a board besides a modest board and you know in the early days I Kind of. Viewed it as my job to not add tasks to their plate I’m like look these are super busy people like I’ll use as little of their time as you know as as possible here I mean yes, of course if there’s areas that they can add value them and I’d like tap them on the shoulders. But that was that was my you know psychology Um, as a company grows and your board grows. Um.
Sean Duffy: You know it changes where you have to build the mental model of your board as a team and like anything a productive aligned. You know, engaged team can deliver outsized results for the business. Um, and you know that’s kind of been a really neat transition. I mean we didn’t have a. A board chair I had ah you know someone I brought on as an independent. Um you know honor that she accepted kind of the role of board chair when asked because the board also needs leadership. It’s a team like anything else. Um, and then you have to you know, create all sorts of really you know appropriate governance structures if you want to. You know, have at some point being public being an option. Um, you have comp committees you have you know nomination of governance committees you have audit committees and you know sitting there and observing those you realize how really really important they can you know they can be for the business. Um, and so it becomes kind of a second level level of like you know. Culture and capabilities and thinking of you know how how the board can best you know pull the company forward and help us ask the critical questions because you know you’re you’re in the the gopher hole you know I mean you’re you wake up, you have an infinite to do list. There’s no way you’re going to be able to take care of everything and it’s very helpful with people that have seen a lot of patterns to be like. How how are you thinking about this and sometimes like perfect I know the exact answer other times you’re like that is a very good question that we we need to like take into strategy here. So um, yeah, it’s changed completely.
Alejandro Cremades: And in terms of people you know now that we’re we’re talking about people here. How many people do you guys have you know mother. Wow I Mean that’s a lot of people now now I guess say.
Sean Duffy: Um, about 700
Alejandro Cremades: Before really going into that I want to ask you because incredible growth you know, incredible the cycles that you guys have gone through you know whether is the lifecycle of the business or financing cycles to really you know, get the company to where it is today I guess for you, you know as as as the founder and and and and and the one that is leading here the operation.
Sean Duffy: A.
Alejandro Cremades: How do you think you know you’ve been able to keep up up the same pace as the company’s growth because obviously you know you see this multiple times where unfortunately the founder you know is not at the same speed and and it outpaces you know the the founder itself. So how have you managed to really keep yourself at the same speeding parallel. So.
Sean Duffy: Yeah, know it’s ah it’s a good question. Um, um, one is just having ah a real dedication to having a growth mindset. Um, and I love if there’s like literally one attribute said like what what is it? What is the defining characteristic of youhan dafi. It’s like a love of learning like I just I love it like I thrive on. Like I just feel so good to learn like it’s almost like a compulsion. So um, there’s no better learning opportunity than being a Ceo at various different stages of the business. So what I would do my tactic was to try to find people who one or two years out were in the role and use them as mentors for a period of three months Um, soak as much as possible from them and almost like rinse and repeat um because you want someone that’s close enough to where you’re about to be that they still have fresh memories. Um, you know like so it’s less helpful to Amada you know for me to find you know a Ceo who’s one hundred thousand person company. That’s like. Um, but it’s more important to find someone who’s kind of right ahead and so you you kind of cast that out. Um the other is constantly ask yourself what what? Um, the job might be like in the next chapter and what omada might need from you. Um, in an evolved role and then just. Put out a mandate where if you’re if you literally don’t look back last year and you’re not a little bit embarrassed about like your your past self. Ah you know, something’s wrong. There. Um, and that’s been that’s been really fun I mean sometimes people ask you if you’ve been 11 years in Amada like.
Sean Duffy: Long time to be Ceo and or you bored I’m like no no because I’ve I’ve actually I’ve been like I’ve had like 4 roles because the Ceo role is completely different. Um, yeah you know Ceo in early days is very different than the Ceo now and like literally relative to like my behaviors like. You know what I need to be doing how to intersect and interact and support the organization like it all changes so much that it’s a very different role and it’s been um, an extraordinary privilege to to you know lead the organization and you know it’s um. It’s been a blessing that the board’s fully supported. Um, you know my learning and growth and allowed me to make a you know set of of course mistakes along the way.
Alejandro Cremades: Now 700 people is is a lot of people. So what? what have been. You know some of the fundamental pillars in there to really you know set up a culture that that people would really see themselves excited in the in the future that they’re living into so.
Sean Duffy: She.
Sean Duffy: Yeah, the the you know the my observation is culture needs to go from you know point where it’s kind of okay for it to be implicit to making it very very explicit and you know you got to have like those values written down. You know they need to be part of onboarding you need to tie actions and behaviors to those values they need to be in hiring processes performance Review Processes. You know, not just on the website. Um because you know people come in with various various different backgrounds. So. There’s kind of like a values thing that becomes very important to the business. Um, you need a more crystalline strategy. To make sure every everybody understands like where we’re going why you know how you need more you know infrastructure to kind of align goals against that strategy and against those objectives um to you know, allow um cohesion across the company and then ah you you need great leaders and managers. Um, and you know I think I never quite appreciated like what it means to be a great leader until just watching you know watching a model and and are all the most tricky situations as we scale the business. It almost always comes down to like that function or that team you know has a leader we’re they’re not giving. And pulling the best from the team you know in the ways that you know is is needed and so you know the the importance of Leadership. You know as you scale because you you, um, you know you really can’t do it alone like it has to be driven by incredible managed managers and and other leaders in the organization.
Alejandro Cremades: So and and es scaling I mean obviously the the size of the operation that you guys have now is is really remarkable, but you know I’m sure that there was like many breakthroughs that you guys you know, like really experienced in order to really get to this level. So What would you say you know as you’re looking back. You know what’s probably the biggest you know that the. That omada. You know, went through. So.
Sean Duffy: Yeah I know I mean it’s um, there’s been a couple of like meat moments I remember this one where it’s like we just saw a lot of deals coming that we’re going to deploy in q one and we’re like this is going to be so much different than anything we’ve ever done operationally and you hear all these stories of like. Companies. They scale like all these like scaling missteps and like ops gone wrong and you know in healthcare if you burn the trust with your customers that can have strong you know reverbations remember literally we we went through q 4 looking ahead into q one deployments and like they already sketched up all the critical processes kind of as they stood at a lotda. And which ones which ones could break what are the mitigations we should be thinking about like right now if it does break. What’s the escalation path to solve it quickly like almost in a pre-mortem and let’s imagine we just flop q one like why did we flop like what specifically happened. And it was kind of this fun moment. We’re like Lu I remember at a q err we’re like we all need to like once we get through this we all need t-shirts that’ll say like I survived q one forget which year it was um, but it was it was a nice galvanizing moment and and and you know you you just cannot you. Gotta hit your customer commitments. So and everything really worked like all the planning like kicked in the gear. You know there are a lot of nights and weekends. Um, but ah like you know to our customers like okay, it works. We deploy just fine. So that was kind of one one moment I remember a lot.
Alejandro Cremades: Now Now imagine you were to go to sleep tonight and you wake up in a world where the vision of omayah health is fully realized what does that world look like okay.
Sean Duffy: Um.
Sean Duffy: Ah, yeah, it was a super specifically and I tell us to the company I tell this externally we need to run hard until tomorrow’s epidemiologists like notice a bend in the condition areas you know that we’re treating. They look at the the epi of the country and like oh what? what? why did diabetes outcomes get better funny.
Sean Duffy: That’s strange because we didn’t expect that and then they unpack it and it’s omada that did it. So I mean I’m I’m so proud of where we’ve come from. We now have over what 1700 employers we work with enrolled over 700,000 members. It’s great, but you know anytime a spotlight shown on a mada I was remind that. Our entire category has not done anything yet. I mean you got like 30000000 people with diabetes alone in the us you know about 70000000 with metabolic risk and prediabetes. Yeah, the low-end and so you know we got to keep running hard until we’re we’re enrolling millions of people a year um ah because that’s that’s what’s going to be required and we’ve made 0 progress across the country at critical. You know ah ah yeah quality measures in diabetes. It’s um, it’s been a very very tough 1.
Alejandro Cremades: Now imagine I was to put you into um time machine and I bring you back in time you know I bring you back. Perhaps you know to that moment where you know you just joined idea you were coming out of Harvard of of doing your studies and and you have the opportunity of giving. That younger Sean one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why giving what you know now.
Sean Duffy: Um.
Sean Duffy: You know it’s going to sound so tactical. Um, but it’s so much more important than I ever thought it’s focused obsessively about your pricing. You know the the price point the revenue model how the revenue comes in. You know the characteristics reliability. Um. Like the you know out the margin profile of our cohorts changes. It’s like we’ve got our pricing dialed in now. But um, our early pricing model was not supportive of um, either efficiency or optimal. Um you know growth in the way that it could have been um and you know we made all sorts of mistakes like you know, 1 kind of classic one. And enterprise I mean when you’re when you’re a procurement lead. You know as a buyer like your goal is to try to shave 10% off whatever vendor comes your way or x targets I mean of like expectations against it. So. If you know that you should probably like allow for your pricing to be able to accommodate that versus being like look we can’t so it’s you know it’s like little things like that I’d be like Sean Larry become a savant um pricing so much more of a believer than I ever imagined.
Alejandro Cremades: I Love it now shown for the people that are listening. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.
Sean Duffy: Um, I just email me is just a se n at Amadaheth Dot Com Um, you know I will always always help any entrepreneur I’ve never turned down an ask? Um, so yeah I always always have it help.
Alejandro Cremades: Amazing. Well Sean thank you so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been and on earth to have you with us. Thanks.
Sean Duffy: Oh yeah, honor honor to be on. Thank you, Thank you for the great conversation.
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