Sagiv Ofek is now on his third startup. A venture which has already raised tens of millions of dollars this year from top-tier investors like Rainfall Ventures, StepStone Group, Zeev Ventures, and Insight Partners.
In this episode, you will learn:
- How LibLab is transforming work for developers
- How to pick your investors
- When you should and shouldn’t raise money for your company
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The Ultimate Guide To Pitch Decks
Moreover, I also provided a commentary on a pitch deck from an Uber competitor that has raised over $400 million (see it here).
Remember to unlock for free the pitch deck template that is being used by founders around the world to raise millions below.
About Sagiv Ofek:
Sagiv Ofek is the CEO at LibLab. Previously, Sagiv Ofek was Senior Manager, Software Development at Amazon Web Services. Sagiv Ofek holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Science & Management from The Open University of Israel.
Sagiv loves writing about software engineering, leadership, and anything in between. He writes a blog that is meant to be a practical guide for real-life situations. Currently, Sagiv is building a new company – LiblLab, and enjoys enabling people to build amazing products.
Before that, he managed the AWS SDK teams. And before that, he worked at and helped billion people to connect by sharing moments of their lives. Before Facebook, Sagiv started 3 companies across the US, Israel, and Brazil.
In his free time, he loves taking long walks while listening to audiobooks (follow him on GoodReads). He is also into Jiu-Jitsu and considers himself lucky if he doesn’t get hurt once a month.
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Connect with Sagiv Ofek:
Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:
Alejandro Cremades: Um, already hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So we have a very exciting founder today from startup nation. So again, you know we’re gonna be talking about startups that worked out startups that didn’t work so well and also the rocket ship that he has embarked on so you know. Building financing scaling. You know the drill in obviously in this last say company racing a series a you know of 50,000,000 in just five months so anyways let’s give it a go here. Let’s let’s welcome our guest today and his name is let’s see if I get it right. Sajev oh fake welcome to the show.
Sagiv Orek: Thanks you for thanks for having me and the handle you got it almost right? It’s a give but close enough.
Alejandro Cremades: See see how you know it, you know sometimes the spanglist kicks in. So hopefully you know, um, um, you forgive me for the spangle is kicking so sa give why don’t we do a little if a walk through memory lane and you know your story is remarkable and I’m sure that we’re gonna be inspiring a lot of people that are tuning in. But. In this case I mean you’re from Israel and you know in Israel startup nation. You know there is saying you know I’m sure that there’s a lot of people that are tuning in now that willllah to hear you know about your life growing up and and for you to give us a little of a walk through memory lane. So how was life growing up there in Israel.
Sagiv Orek: It’s actually was pretty awesome I have to say ah born and raised in Israel I grew up to what I want to say a typical childhood. But after moving to the us I realized that there is not such a fiend of typical childhood because childhood in different countries might be very different but. Says a key they had a lot of freedom to roam around whatever I want fail hurt myself a lot of times but overall I was super happy to to grow there and then in general I’ll say I learned a lot um or at least most of my personality was shaped on on my childhood there.
Alejandro Cremades: Now most of the people that that I’ve had the show from Israel you know, obviously they the military’s mandatory so you guys can escape and doing your your your stin there but in in in in this case I mean most of the people that I’ve had on the show are people that. In essence you know, went to their intelligence team cyber security team or whatever that is ah but in your case it was combat so tell us about the combat unit. What I mean were you were you like punching people there or what was the combat unit all about.
Sagiv Orek: Well I want to say I was either crazy crazy or lucky enough to to get accepted to kind of special forces unit. So that’s not a typical route for kind of stop startup founder. It comes from Israel originally usually like you mentioned they they go to all those intelligent units or technical units. I do think you can learn a lot and and and shape your your future or your personality going into those tough comment units because you really by design face a lot of really hard situation in life that teach you a lot about what is important when it’s not help build character.
Alejandro Cremades: Going on.
Sagiv Orek: Um, I was also lucky enough to be an officer So I’m going to the kind of office of course and and kind of leading other people gives you a lot of experience of like leadership and leadership. You’ll be surprised but leadership in Army might be very very similar to leadership in in startups or other environments as well.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, how how is that the case how how is that the case.
Sagiv Orek: Um, a lot. So so you you learn how to work with people right? you learn how to motivate people you learn how to make people do things that they they don’t always want to do right? How you like you, you learn how to be visionary and how to have people marching after you, whatever you want to March it towards um. And this this applies for business this apply for army this supply for for a lot of other things. But I think what I learned the most is the power of a team. It can be a really small team but this small team can accomplish a lot of great things in the future. Um, and I know especially for for like american corporations like. Bigger is always better. But I think what I learned is. It’s not always the case you can actually accomplish more with less people as long as the people are super motivated and super talented.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, now in your case you know like you obviously didn’t go to one of those special units. You know on the intelligence or or more than the techy side but you ended up on it on the on the techy side of things because you you got your computer science Degree. So So how do you.? You know, realize hey you know I want to I want to take this route.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah I think I was always in ordered even when I was in the army I always drew to computers think to say got my my last computer when I was like 5 and like I kind of fell in love with with what you can accomplish years in kind of. Technology so for for me, it was a no braininer that after I finish with the army I go back to to computers and and hightack because that was my my passion.
Alejandro Cremades: So for you after getting the the degree you did a couple of stints as a software engineer really learning the ropes right before you actually went at it with your with your first startup which was home dime now. Home dying. You know was quite the Experience. You know one of the as they say you know you don’t learn as much from your successes right? You do learn a lot when you fall right? and and home dying. Although a great you know Opportunity. It was not the desirable outcome that you had to hope for. So. What happened with home din. How do you realize? hey I’m going to go start this thing and and what were you guys doing there and and what what were the events that unfolded.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so believe it or not homeda started as a hackkeon project. We won like a local hackathon project in Tel Aviv and I fell in love with the idea and the potential. So I decided to actually start a company around it. We got funding at least in founding and and actually move to the to the us the silicon valley. Um, to kind of scale the company and and start like hopefully make this idea big and and I agree with you, you actually learn a lot from failure. Um, and I learned like the things that you want to do and the things that you don’t want to do I learned a lot from from my experience in homedain eventually the startup didn didn’t make it. We had to shut it down. But. I think one of the main takeaways that they had is um and and I think one of the investors that I had back in the days told me that startup fails not when they run out of money startup fail when the the founder kind of lose interest or or believe it they cannot make it. And and and I really felt it like in in 1 case when when I was managing the startup and we still have some money in the bank. But I just I didn’t see it going anywhere and and I lost hope and I think once the the founder kind of lose hope everything else will will just fall apart soon after so I decided to shut everything down and and.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, you know.
Alejandro Cremades: We document.
Sagiv Orek: Return The the small amount of money that we still had in the bank. Um, and another thing that the you realize is that whatever you choose you have to choose something that you will be passionate about um otherwise you’ll give up and you give up very fast.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, right? um.
Sagiv Orek: Ah, when think gets hard and in every company thing gets hard in some point no matter how much money you have in brand account. No matter your your service b or or all the way to ipo um thing gets hard in some point and if you don’t have the conviction if you don’t have the passion for whatever you’re doing. You’ll just give give up right. So no matter as a founder no matter what idea you decide to do keep in mind that you’re probably going to do it for the next few years so you better like really be motivated to to work in this domain. Otherwise you’ll give up very very easily.
Alejandro Cremades: Got it I mean obviously you there you know, still you guys got some good features now like on big media outli. So so I mean you know typically it’s interesting because when you think that you’ve you’ve been featured on on these big media blogs. You feel like you’ve made it and then you realize not so fast, right? kind of thing. So. I guess for you at what point do urea I mean first and foremost I mean what was the business model of home dying. How how did you guys make money.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, home time back in a days was you can think about it as kind of airbnb for meals so everybody can open a home restaurant invite people over and charge money for it. So you can You can open your own restaurant out of your home had so many issues with that anything from legal to. Um, kind of Consumer behavior especially in the Us market convincing people to kind of go to random people’s houses was not in the culture. That’s also something that was really different between the Israeli culture where it used to be very common to host people over at their at your home even stranger. Versus the Us market that it’s like it’s a Big. No-no to go to some random person house and and eat kind of random dinner with them. So Yeah I think I learned a lot about different cultures different consumer behaviors. But yeah, the idea was pretty much airbnb for meals.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, yeah.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, so then in this case I mean at what point do you realize? hey this is not working out because I mean you did spend 2 years of your life on this thing.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah I think when I I realized that they try to convince people to use it and tell them why it’s good for them to use it at the beginning you you just you just grind right? It’s It’s a all right? It’s It’s part of being a hustler. It’s part part of being an entrepreneur. You have to teach the market you have to teach people how to use your product but I think hey got so many pushbacks from from potential customers or potential users. It’s like in some point I was like all right like if I get so many pushbacks. Maybe I’m seeing it wrong versus the customers saying it run right? Um, and and it’s really hard to educate markets especially in New markets. Um, if you make it. It’s it’s can be amazing right? The new products that educate market can create a whole new revenue stream. But I’ll say 99% of times you actually you you will hit some Rod block you will hit some wall and it’s really hard to kind of overcome that.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, so at what point do you realize? hey you know I think I’m gonna have to shut this thing down.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah I I think once I start seeing like a pattern of me trying to convince users to use the product um over and over and over Again. It’s like all right, That’s that’s just too much like if if I need to really bottle with potential customers and users and explain them why they should use it. Maybe there is no product Market Feed. So I didn’t see enough growth I didn’t see enough conversion in in the user. Um, that just kind of justify continuing and and investing in it.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, now in your case once a you shut this thing down I mean always he That’s ah, pretty humbling you know experience. You know I’m sure but you know in this case for you. You know it was time to turn page. So what happened next.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so next I actually joined an existing startup out of New York they already were up and running I joined as a founding member that was a technical kind of startup that. Um, in that regard I want to say I was much much more lucky because we had a positive outcome and we were able to to sell the company pretty much a year after I joined a year or two after I joined.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and that was brewster so with Brewster you know when you are going through the experience of doing the full cycle. What what does that look like because I mean here you were a founding you know team memory. You know pretty early. You know the journey of this company and you were able to really get to see. What a successful and positive outcome looks like what kind of visibility that did I give you.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, it’s a very good question I think one of the things that I enjoy saying is like how easy is there? How easier it is not to bottle with your users I try to convince them to to use it right? like it it it eitherered they use it or not and if they use it. There is a potential product Market fit and it’s always. Exciting to see how people actually use your product and enjoy isn’t it. So for me that was a great kind of outcome and like an eye opening of like hey like this is how this is how potential product market feed can look like this is ah like if you build it right? and people actually using it like it’s actually very exciting to work on it.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and what is product market fit in your eyes.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so um, I would say that there was um I forgot who said that but there is a really good example that product market fe is like when once you have it, you know that you have it if you’re asking if you have a product market fin you probably don’t have it. Um, and I would say that if you’re like drowning from demand and people pull you over for so many different places and you have so many users who want that and keep using it and you just cannot keep up with the request that you’re getting. That’s definitely a product market fee. From the other hand you spend most of your time on outbound or try to convince people to use your product. You should maybe step back for a second and ask yourself if you have this product market fit because a good product market fit. You’ll be just surrounded by inbound request and and kind of ask to use your product.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, now in your case too. I mean especially from from from the way that that you share you know, certain things I can I can see that you read a lot you know I can see you know from some of those comments you know which tain that are right on you know I can see that you’ve read a lot in and. I Guess as a founder it’s important to really understand you know your go to places for information right? because you need to keep yourself. You know, developing at the same speed as as the companies I guess in your in your on your end you know as a founder and and being involved with startups. Why would you say have been your go to places to really develop yourself as ah as a founder to it.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so I mean reading is definitely an important scale and in my case, it’s lesss reading more listening I mean I read books by listening to them I’m a huge huge fan of kind of audio books every time that either I go to gym or just wash dishes I have like a book in in the background that that I’m listening to. Um, it’s definitely ah, a great source. Um I know it’s like it’s a kind of hand wavy answer but a lot of time. The best source is experience right? Like no matter how much you will read about it just by experiencing things and especially by failing you will learn so many things right? like after Burster. And after um, home D I got so many requests to join so many different companies in a way I saw myself as a potential vc because I know already How V is evaluate companies I know what will work What will not work and as the founder who failed so many times I actually can can of identify. Failure Points. So I was so skeptical pretty much for 99% of the people who came to me with hey do you want to join me for this startup or do you want to join or you want to start this idea like um in a way I maybe I pivoted too much to the to the kind of negative side and then was very pessimistic for every idea, but. I think I learned the hard way of when to say no and what to say no to because by failing you you actually experience some patterns that you can identify in the future and and learn how to avoid them and that actually one of the things that led me to to labellab in the way. But I guess we’ll get we get there.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, or getting right right into it. So so after brewster. Actually you joined Facebook and you know you did Facebook with Facebook story. It’s the Amazon now this is interesting because here you go from doing startups to doing bigger companies. And now to doing startups again. So what would you say you know it’s really the difference. You know of working at a big company versus now running your own and then what was your takeaway from seeing those really big companies. Super successful companies I mean 2 of the. Most successful companies out there right now. Um to then go and start your own with those learnings.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so after brewster even though it was a successful outcome. It was not like amazing successful outcome right? It was not like what I want to say fuck you money or something like that. Um, so it it was. It was a nice kind of exit but not something that I can retire after right.
Alejandro Cremades: Ah, okay.
Alejandro Cremades: I.
Sagiv Orek: And I think one of the things that I learned is that I did startups pretty much all of my life and I have no idea how a big company operates right? like I have no idea how to scale a company even as a manager I don’t know how to scale big teams so that kind of inspired inspired me to to. And I try to copy from the best companies in the world and and that’s why I decided to join Facebook and Amazon just to see like how top-t tier companies operates right? anything from processes to to management to to hiring to firing then and and everything in between. Joined those companies as a manager because I I want to see how they operate how they hire people how they develop people. Um, so can I can I can pretty much copy the the thing that I thinke will be super relevant for me. So when I go back to startups because the the goal for me was always to start another company in. Hopefully the the next company will be much bigger as success but I didn’t have enough tools and so I decided to join the best companies in the world to to kind of get the tools by the tool set for me as a manager the tool set for me as as ah, entrepreneur is as ah as a founder so when I go back to the startup world. I’ll I’ll have this experience of like how to manage multiple teams how to manage hundred people how to scale what is process how like Hr kind of processes look like because again coming from certain for a small startup you just you don’t know how to do it.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, but it was 5 years and five long years because I mean as an entrepreneur you’re always an entrepreneur so during those five years I mean at what point do you realize I think I’m ready for my next content.
Sagiv Orek: I think I think after a year to be honest, some people can find himself in big big companies pretty much for the rest of your life and and and it’s good for them or I mean some people enjoy big companies right? The corporate America and um and the the kuhi kind of. Cushy position that you can have our golden cage or however, you want to call it for me I think after a year or so I kind of learned most of of the practices. But I just I didn’t feel that I have good enough idea or good enough reason to to leave this cushy position and start something on my own. And for me, it all clicked after my tenure in Amazon where when I saw a huge opportunity while I was actually in iws and I realized how much of opportunities we have around the domain of kind of helping companies to to schedule their sdks or to generate sdks with their apis because this is what I did internally for Aws as a manager.
Alejandro Cremades: Are.
Sagiv Orek: And I decided to do it as a kind of standalone company for the rest of of for the rest of the world pretty much.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, so what was the ah experience of you know going at it on your own and then figuring out how you surround yourself by others.
Sagiv Orek: Well you get closer your arc at the beginning right? because you don’t have all the kind of the luxury of people around you and the paycheck every month for the beginning you just you go to the down note right? You start everything from the ground up. Even to hire people like I’ll say it’s much easier to hire in your Facebook or or New Amazon than when you hire us and no name new startup right? because at the end of the day you compet with all those big companies. So how how you differentiate yourself? How do you attract on and how like why should the person who join you and not Facebook for instance, right.
Alejandro Cremades: Now you know.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, will. The.
Sagiv Orek: Especially when you pay less than Facebook. So for me like the the humbling experience again was like the grind of finding top talent but then convince them to join you especially when you’re just getting started and nobody heard about you.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and and in this case, Lib Lab You know what? what? what ended up being the business model of Lib lab.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so in liblab it’s very simple. We call. It Sdk a service. It’s a saas company that help companies ah to generate sdks for their apis. So if you have an api no matter what your api is about and you want to make it more accessible safer or better um to your developers. We help you generate sdks in multiple languages at the same time with pretty much zero effort for us as a company so you can offer your developers sdks in all languages according to best practices and maintain those sdks with 0 efforts so we help companies to to make us the case for their apis.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and they know they’re financing. It has been pretty wild. So how much capital have you guys raised today and what has been the you know the the financing cycles like.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so the company started believe it or not generate this year. So the company is what seven months all give or take and so far we raised $50,000,000 in 2 rounds herea and and and Sid round. Um the the funding was really fast.
Alejandro Cremades: Are.
Sagiv Orek: And I don’t think it’s because my nice pretty blue eyes mostly because I don’t have blue eyes I think it was just ah, going back to the the product market feed question I think we’re solving a really really large problem like our target audience is pretty much every company with an Api. And the problem we’re solving for them is helping them create sdk for them. So the huge market. Obviously we have we have the knowledge and the know-how how to do that because this is what they did in-house for aws back in the days. So I think the combination of a large market really painful problem to solve when hard to solve. The knowledge of how to solve it. Um, kind of led for for this kind of fast growth and and were allowed us to to raise money in such a short term.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, now your seat round you did it in March and your and your seat round was about 8,000,000 and then your series a you did it in June and that was about you know on the on the closer end to fifty forty forty two I believe but. You know that’s a big jump and like almost no time I mean typically you would raise money you know you would you would let the financing cycles going between by at least 18 to twenty four months so in this case, why did you go at it right away and why that. Massive jump from racing 8000000 shed to racing a 42000000 series a in like just a few months.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, it’s a very good Question. So I think I didn’t look for funding for the series. A like you mentioned like we had enough funding for the next yearer to at least to run with the product. But I think it was a combination of getting approach by really great investors. That are I know a lot of investors say that they’re a value ad but in my case I really felt it. It’s a value aid. Ah both in terms of the the portfolio companies that they invested or the domain that they are super involved with so when they approached me and we had this conversation I realized it it might be really really good idea for the company to kind of. Join forces with those investors and and decide to to to make the the series a a bit earlier and and and kind of scale a bit faster this way.
Alejandro Cremades: And what’s typically thinking there because I’m sure there’s a lot of people and you know I speak with a lot of people that always that are always super concerned about dilution and and just thinking about money just as money and maybe not as Networks or what that money can actually bring you in terms of value added. Ah, type of type of resources either network or distribution or whatever that is so in this case, how did you guys think about you know that aspect too of of of your you know equity, you know and and and how would that you know perhaps take a little of a emotion.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so I’ll step back for a second and maybe start by asking What is your motivation as a founder if your motivation is a founder is full control and owning everything you might not want to embrace from any investors right? You might even have a kind of.
Alejandro Cremades: Um.
Alejandro Cremades: Are.
Sagiv Orek: Standalone side business or kind of lifestyle business that can support you for the rest of your life and you will never need to to fundraise at all right? and this is actually good for a lot of people because they they like this control. They don’t want to report to anyone. They want to decide on the dead taste any kind of um.
Sagiv Orek: And so if this is your motivation I would say don’t even think about the route of Vc. Um, if your motivation is to build something great or something good or big. Um and you don’t really care about like how many people how much energyship you you want to give for it. Ah, then this is might might be a good good route. You should choose in that case I would say there is a high caveat of who who are the partners that you’re choosing right? because unlike founders I want to say because founders can can split up and um and and and not work together. This is the it’s the opposite and this is whoever you join to your cup table. We probably stay there forever. So it’s really really important to to choose the right partner. So in my case, it was less about the need for the funding as much as how I was impressed with with the potential kind of investors that I joined with with.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, now.
Sagiv Orek: To my cup table so choosing the route write write partner is a makeo break for a lot of companies I’m sure you heard a lot of kind of horror stories about Vc or founder were kind of mismatch and then what happened then so I did a lot of homework who the vscs that I want to work with and.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah.
Sagiv Orek: Um, what value they can actually add for Liblab and I was really really lucky to to identify the the one that I wanted to work with and so far I have to say I’m super super impressed with the the value ad that they did bring to the table.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, and why did you wanted to to work with him. What was what were some of that those check marks that were so important for you.
Sagiv Orek: So so there are okay so different vss or investors bring different values. For instance I had amazing angels in my series seed that provide even up to today. Amazing! Amazing value anything from like interviewing potential kind of um. Members all the way to giving advice all the way to open doors when when you need, um, so so it depends what you need from them different investor bring different values. Um I have amazing angels who brought this and at this value I have amazinglycs who bring values with like processes and hiring and and kind of. Um, teaching about product market feed and go to market and and scales and sell for us and things like that because they have a large team that that can educate you about that and there are some investors that are super connected anything from whatever potential kind of sea level execs that you want to hire down the road. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Are.
Sagiv Orek: I think different investors have different niche that they specialize in but you as a founder um don’t just raise from whoever can give you money make sure that you identify first what you want what skill set. Do you want to kind of to add to the table and then find those investors who specialize in that. Um. So in my case I think recording was super helpful sells and go to market kind of knowledge was super helpful. Obviously um, interviews and and get no people sea level execs was super helpful and ah was really lucky to have kind of partners who can support me on all those topics.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, so imagine if you were to go to sleep tonight and you wake up in a world where the vision of Litlab is fully realized what does that world look like.
Sagiv Orek: Yeah, so I mean it’s funny. But for me, the vision is to to help developers be more productive where a developer tools company and for me a developer should spend time on on the hard part and not the things that can be automated right? And as developers we always like to automate Things. So. In an ideal world. What we want to have is things like anything from sdks all the way to server-side and Api generation later um should be Auto generate by a machine should be able to generate by machine because it will save a lot of mistakes for um.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, um.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, so obviously now you know you’re a few startups in you know you’ve had a tremendous amount of experience. You had the ups. You’ve had the downs. Ah now. Imagine with all of that wealth of knowledge that you’ve been able to acquire whether it is with experience or with reading now with all those books that you’re listening to as well if you were to go into a time machine and go back in time and have a chat with that younger Sagiv Orek: that was thinking about starting. First company if you were able to have a sit down and and give that younger as I give 1 piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why given what you know now.
Sagiv Orek: It’s a good question. Um I think the the yeah the advice that I’ll gave for myself is make sure that you want to do that for for the next at least five to ten years otherwise don’t go there right? Like if if you’re looking for a small win small hack win. You will give up to early so whatever you choose to do next no matter what it is no matter what business. What domain you want to you want to focus on make sure that you want to focus on it at least for the next 5 to 10 years at least if not even more because then it will ensure that you’re super motivated about this domain. You’re super passionate about it. And you want to spend most of your your time. No matter if it’s working hours or after working ours trying to solve this problem. Otherwise you will give up early otherwise you you will be demotivated when things don’t go. Well so no matter what you try to focus on make sure that you’re passionate about it.
Alejandro Cremades: More.
Alejandro Cremades: Um I love it now Shahi for the people that are listening. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.
Sagiv Orek: Um, yeah, so um, I’m in Linkedin I’m in Twitter just look for sa give s a g I v of affect ok or go to liblab liblab.com and you’ll find me there.
Alejandro Cremades: Um, amazing, well say you thank you so much for being on the dealmakerr show today. It has been an honor to have you with us.
Sagiv Orek: Thank you to handwri to it was a pleasure.
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