Neil Patel

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In a recent episode of The Dealmakers’ Podcast, Robert Krayn, the visionary founder behind Talkiatry, shared his inspiring journey from a middle-class upbringing in New Jersey to revolutionizing the world of behavioral healthcare.

Despite facing numerous challenges, Krayn’s determination and innovative thinking led him to build a unique healthcare model that empowers both providers and patients. Talkiatry has raised funding from top-tier investors like Left Lane Capital, Sikwoo Capital Partners, Relevance Ventures, and Yousif Al-Dujaili.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • An unwavering belief in your vision can fuel your determination to overcome obstacles and setbacks.
  • Challenges are inevitable, but your approach to overcoming them shapes your success story.
  • Be open to unconventional paths and solutions that can lead to remarkable outcomes.
  • Prioritizing the well-being of providers and patients can lead to a sustainable and successful business model.
  • Building a model that aligns incentives among stakeholders creates a win-win scenario for all parties involved.
  • Maintain your focus and commitment to your vision, even in the face of doubt and noise.


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About Robert Krayn:

Prior to the founding of Talkiatry, Mr. Krayn was a Vice President at MidOcean Partners, where he spent 5 years as a senior analyst. He oversaw a portfolio of high-yield bonds, equities, and derivatives in the consumer, retail healthcare, and other sectors.

Robert’s experience and understanding of these sectors helped him develop the proprietary business model for Talkiatry. Before joining MidOcean, Mr. Krayn was an Analyst at Guggenheim Partners in their Mergers & Acquisitions Group in New York as well as a Credit Analyst at the Bank of New York Mellon.

Robert graduated Summa Cum Laude from Rutgers University with a Bachelor of Science in Finance.

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Connect with Robert Krayn:

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: Um, already hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So today. We have a really exciting guest. You know we’re gonna be talking you know quite a bit you know building scaling financing management styles. What to think about you know when it comes to polishing the idea ideation lounging. Also about when to bring senior executives whether you know to do it early to do it later and of course you know going through the different financing cycles so without further ado. Let’s welcome our guest today Robert Crane welcome to the show.

Robert Krayn: Thanks Alejandro! Really appreciate you. You having me and ah excited to chat.

Alejandro Cremades: So born and raised in New Jersey so give us a walk through memory lane robert how was life growing up.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, freehold New Jersey you know there. It’s in Central New Jersey a lot of people think there’s only north and south but there is there is a central New Jersey if you’re if you’re from it. Um, and you know middle class family went to public school. You know? Ah, first first first of my family to graduate college. You know it was a great It was a great classic. You know american upbringing if you will right.

Alejandro Cremades: So in this case, you know for you, it sounds like business. It was something that you were excited about because you went and and ended up studying at ruggers. So why business out of all things.

Robert Krayn: Yeah I thought that that gave me the the largest opportunity set in the future. You know I was always interested in traveling I traveled around a lot sometimes by myself you know and when. Other people you know couldn’t or or didn’t have the ability to go and and whether that’s traveling in Asia or europe or things like that it was just um I always want to get out and do things and and learn more and business seemed like a wide enough net that um, you know you could take those skills and and you could really do anything with them if you will.

Alejandro Cremades: Now in your case when you graduated from rockers you um, definitely went into the financial service base you did bank of New York Meon to get going and then goggingham partners and the mid-ocean partners. So I guess.

Robert Krayn: Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: What what were some of the lessons that they that you learned you know from from being in some of those big institutions that are so successful.

Robert Krayn: Ah I would say that you know you can make whatever story that you want come to reality is probably the the thing that I would say right? I mean I think some things that you didn’t mention in there that that I think might be important for some folks to know so I went I went to a community college for for some time before I um I moved over to ruckers. And so I didn’t go to a top ivy league school or anything anything like that. Um, but you know it’s just really hard work at the end of the day. Um, and when I graduated ruckers I worked full time all the way through college full time job. Um, so. Didn’t have the opportunity to do internships like other people did I didn’t have the opportunity to do an internship at a financial services firm or anything like that and so I’d say that that you know all of these things like stack up against you if you will right? Like how do you get the next internship if you didn’t have the first one. How do you get a full-time offer if you never had an internship and so you know those things were were difficult and ultimately I graduated ruckers with no. No offer for a job and and had to really work hard. You know to get 1 so but again, you know when you’re when you end up at some of these places. It’s just really like you you could do it if you really want it did you actually do every single thing possible. Most people. The answer is no. You know you could say I never got in touch with this person. It’s like okay well did you stand outside their front door for two weeks but but and until you ran into them and the answer is no. Of course you didn’t right? but but then you didn’t do everything possible. So um, you know I think that that’s kind of a little bit of the moral of the story I would say in terms of you know what? you can do to get where you want to go.

Alejandro Cremades: So then in this case, you know for you when you graduated you know what was that like what were you looking for.

Robert Krayn: It was tough I really didn’t know what I was looking for to be honest I mean I I grew up in central new jersey I didn’t have exposure to investment banking I didn’t even know what that was you know I didn’t understand different asset classes I didn’t understand you know the opportunities that you the careers that you could go into. You know? and and I went to rutckers newark I didn’t even go to ruckers New Brunswick right so you you weren’t necessarily afforded the same like hey by the way here’s how the world works and these are all the things that you could go and do and here’s how to here’s the path to get into those things like that that really wasn’t there. And so you know it was up to me to really find that out and join message boards and ask around and things I just knew that there was a world out there that was really interesting that I didn’t know enough about um and so I I definitely interviewed at places and banks and and didn’t get any offers. Um, and I think I interviewed at Bridgewater and I have no idea how I got that interview. But. Lasted a few rounds and and olds I didn’t get didn’t get an offer. Um, and so you know I had to um, you know focus on what what is my entry point into that space and ultimately you know I really? Ah, you know, worked with my professors and things like that and and career fairs and went to career fairs for schools that I didn’t go to for example, right. Um, and ultimately got an offer for bank of New York Mellon which required me to move to Pittsburgh you know and I think the salary was like forty something thousand dollars a year.

Alejandro Cremades: So then? so then what was it like you know, like going through all these different you know firms I mean because I mean you you it sounds like the one year Mark you know was the ah the one for you I mean you were for 1 year at bank on New York New York Mellon then another year are guggingham partners. So what. What were you looking for? what what were what were you in search for there.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, so I just knew that you know in order to really the the best opportunity set at that time I think it’s changed pretty dramatically from from when I was younger and went through that but the best opportunity to say you know the the world is your oyster if you will right is to say um I want to go through a rigorous investment banking program and I think that that would not only give me. Um, you know the rigor. That’s really allowed but really just allow me to interact with people and find out things that I never would have had the opportunity to do period you know and so I always knew that you know I had to get there somehow and I knew I wasn’t goingnna be able to just get a job there right out of school right? because I didn’t have an internship and all those other things. So I knew I had already missed that boat. Um and rutckers. That doesn’t really have I mean they have some alumni but they’re not you know, like like and Nyu or harvard or all of these other places that have ah you know all of these alumni on the street that can that can help you so it was really just saying like I just have to keep moving and you can’t get stuck somewhere because then you’re going to get stuck there forever. For example, right um. And so I knew that there were these steps that I had to take to get where I wanted to go and you know bank of New York Meland was the first one Guggenheim was the second one I knew that investment banking really wasn’t for me. It wasn’t I didn’t have enough control over what what I was doing and then and then ultimately you know midocean which you know I learned you know, incredible amount. During my time there.

Alejandro Cremades: Um, so there was 1 moment there 1 1 thing that happened with the that involved you know one of your neighbors that changed everything. What happened.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was um, a few days before Christmas and 2016 middle of the night I think it was like a you know a weekday night like a Wednesday or something. Um and I had a home invasion in my apartment in New York City and that ended up being the adult son of a neighbor across the hall and so um, you know that was a pretty traumatic experience. My wife now girlfriend at the time was home. Um, and you know it’s difficult because if you have to throw out your garbage in a apartment building For example, you know I have to you have to walk past this person’s door. You know if you’re waiting for the elevator and the doors open and they’re standing there. Where are you supposed to go and so it was something got to the point where my my wife was asking me to come home. You know to walk the dog in the middle of the day or help her throw out the garbage or escort her outside you know and um, you know I think that. A good friend of mine. His wife is a psychiatrist and she said you guys should go and chat with someone you know and I want I want to see the best the best provider possible I wanted to see a doctor a psychiatrist and I thought I’ve got great health insurance. Um, you know I live in New York city which is one of the most densely populated areas of psychiatrist in in America um, it should be easy right. And but what I found was that it was incredibly incredibly difficult to find 1.

Alejandro Cremades: What what? what was so difficult about it.

Robert Krayn: I mean to put it in context. There’s only 45000 psychiatrists in America you know if 45% of them don’t accept insurance and they’re highly specialized and so you know what happens is and most of them work at either hospitals or or private practice by themselves and they’re they’re generally full and so. You know what you email 20 people and whoever responds is the person you go and see and there’s a very high likelihood that that’s not the right doctor for you. But there’s even in higher likelihood that that doctor that you’re not very patient for that doctor right? Psychiatrist specialize in nuanced things age ranges demographics. You know, certain treatment modalities conditions. You know there’s a really. Ah, large wide array of things that they specialize in and so I did that only 1 person responded. They didn’t accept insurance I had to pay $400 out of pocket their office um was 1 level below ground in this area in New York called Columbus Circle you know it’s underground because you have those really thin windows at the top of the ceiling right. Um, solid wood door eight doorbells on the side of the wall with tape underneath each one and a doctor’s name you know written in marker hit the button I assume you know a buzzer goes off and um, you know nothing happened and long story short I didn’t have any type of diagnosal mental illness or need medication. But I just thought. You know I don’t feel like I’m in I’m in good hands at all and it doesn’t make sense. You know why why? It’s like this. So I really wanted to dig into it and find out.

Alejandro Cremades: Um, so then what happened what happened next.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, so you know at the time one of the sectors that I covered was healthcare and so I was well aware of of really large successful. You know, ah medical specialty practices. Um in other areas of medicine whether it’s primary care whether it’s women’s care. You know urgent care. Things like that and I thought you know why has nobody really created this in the behavioral health space and I really tried to understand you know? Well why aren’t what’s the most constrained resource in the entire space. Not what’s the easiest to build or do just what’s the most constrained resource. And you know the answer is. It’s not the number of therapists. There are in the Us. Even though that’s limited as well and and an issue It’s not the number of nurses. It’s not apps. It’s not any of that stuff. The answer was the number of of psychiatrists in the country and I thought okay well that’s something that’s that’s really what you you’ve got to fix and then you can build up from there. And I really just started to do research just try to talk to doctors. You know why why? Why don’t you work in a group practice. Why do you work? You know, really 2 jobs most most psychiatrists that I learned worked you know in hospital settings and then had their own private practice on Friday evenings or the weekends or something along those lines and like why is that ideal is that what you want or you forced to do that and then you know you. You hear that there’s this fallacy that people think insurance companies. Don’t want to pay for behavioral health care and I think that’s that’s not right at all. Um, and so I said why? why is that the case you know there’s got to be something that insurance companies are looking for that. They’re not getting currently because the math says that a patient who has a chronic physical condition think.

Robert Krayn: High blood pressure for example, nothing nothing crazy. That’s co-morbid so occurring at the same time as an untreated behavioral health condition think depression cost an insureer 2 to 3 times more a year to treat that patient. So if I’m an insurance company I’m saying I want to I want to give everyone behavioral health care. You know all day right to to save those costs. Um. So it it. It. It didn’t pass a smel test. It didn’t line up what people were saying and the the the stigma associated with insurance and behavior health care with the actual numbers from an insurance company and um, so I said there’s a really big opportunity here. Um, and I think that the way you have to solve this problem is and and this is what I firmly believe and it’s definitely different from how others have. Have created these types of of practices which is we really believe that we have to first solve the problem for the provider number one we have to be the best place for a psychiatrist and a behavior health provider to work in America number 2 we have to solve the problem for an insurance company if we do those 2 things it will then allow us. Really successfully solve the problem for a patient at the end of the day and if you did it in a reverse order. You would build something that that is really not scalable to a certain point not strategic and wouldn’t really be able to fix the problem you would have built something saying how can I give this consumer. Whatever they want if they want behavioral health to to text. Want to give it to them. But that’s not necessarily going to result in the highest quality outcomes you might say they want the ability to message anybody they want any time you might say I’m going to go in 1099 a bunch of providers to give them the most amount of access. Well, how are you going to then focus on quality and allowing those providers to to provide the most.

Robert Krayn: Quality care which allows you to move into value-based care right? So it’s like the decisions you make early on really affect what you can become at the end of the day and can you really solve the the problem rather than than looking like you can solve the problem.

Alejandro Cremades: So I guess for the people that are listening then what ended up being the business model of coquetry. How do you guys make money.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, so um, we employ behavioral health providers. So you know we employ you know, almost 350 psychiatrists w 2 across the country. We. We also employ therapists and and other other types of behavioral providers as well but predominantly psychiatrists. And we contract on a nationwide basis with every major health insurance company in the country. So you know you’re thinking of the blues plans you’re thinking of Optum Signa Aetna you know Humana Medicare all of those folks and we get paid by them. Ah, for for providing care to patients at the end of the day.

Alejandro Cremades: So one one of the things that I’d like to ask you here. Is you guys have raised a bit of money How much money have you guys raised.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, um in equity about 115000000 to date.

Alejandro Cremades: Okay, so how do you think about equity and debt. You know for a company like this.

Robert Krayn: Yeah I mean I think um, you know I came from a debt background. So I’m very comfortable with it. You know and and even in this setting. It’s kind of ah you know I think that there’s there’s there’s a lot of restrictions placed upon debt. You know what you can and can’t do and I think that the more restrictions you have when you’re still trying to grow and figure out the best way to do things the the worse off you are and so we have a great excuse me. We have great debt partners today you know all of our facilities are undrawn. They’re they’re kind of really here for backup purposes if you will um and we have drawn them. Um, and use them and they’ve been. They’ve been super helpful I think as companies get more structured standardized. You’ve got a much more reliable financial model right? and it can be very volatile in the in the in the early days and so once it’s smoother and more predictable you can start to use and leverage debt in um, in ah in ah, a much better way and I’m certainly an advocate for that but that I would say comes in kind of the series c and later stages to to really be comfortable doing it. There’s still a lot of aversion to using debt for a venture-backed. Company first.

Alejandro Cremades: Um, and then also for you guys. How has it been you know going through the through the different rounds.

Robert Krayn: So it’s tough right? I mean it’s you know it’s not like um and the interesting thing is I think covid certainly helped from what we were doing we you know we were working on this well before covid covid certainly brought a focus on the space and and behavioral health care and. You know mental wellness and things like that. Um, so that definitely helped but what I would say is that our our model our practice model of employing physicians wasn’t it wasn’t looked upon favorably back then I think there was a lot of individuals and and firms that were um. Became very interested in behavioral health because of covid and they didn’t necessarily have you know a well formed opinion on the space just yet and so what happened is you know they invested in practices that ultimately you know didn’t didn’t really hit the Mark right? or having issues today. Um, and you know I think that. The the what people were looking for back then was ten ninety nine providers you know kind of treating them like uber drivers for example and we didn’t think that was good and so we went out and and we our our providers. You know they cost a lot more They’re doctors. We employed them. Which means we had to carry you know, benefits and taxes and all of those additional things. Um, and you know generally speaking. You know your expenses align really well with your income if you’re using ten ninety nine because if that provider is not working or generating you know? um, ah generating anything then they’re not They’re not costing you anything.

Robert Krayn: And on the w two side. It’s totally the opposite. You’ve got to get this provider and work with them to get them utilized and have a full patient population panel if you will and you have to carry a lot of that while they’re building it. And so I think that that business model you know it wasn’t understood super well yet it was understood from the standpoint of if you’re really large and mature but from a venture world. You know that was not something that was viewed super highly I think it’s changed dramatically in the last few years and now people are really understanding. You know? oh we now we know what we’re looking for. We know what works. Chochiatry myself. My co-founder. We always knew what worked but it it takes ah a while for the market to to get up this speed on that now we’re seeing a lot a lot of investors being being much much smarter and much more focused on the space which is which is great for us right.

Alejandro Cremades: So we’re talking about people. It sounds like you guys brought senior executives really early now. How do you? How how do you guys? go about that and then also how should founders think about bringing senior people.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, yeah.

Robert Krayn: Yeah I mean so so the back story there is Talkiatry hired our chief operating officer and our chief technology officer. Um, probably right? just shy of the 1 year Mark from when we were operating and I think it was just before we closed our series a so in early, you know. A large series. A so an early kind of 2021 if you will um and our our chief operating officer Josh kirmish was was previously at a really large physician group called sound physicians and and you know he he’s been. You know, um, managing large physician groups for you know north of 2 decades if you will um. And then our chief technology officer joined at the same time jared kamins who you know was was basically at every you know, major new york -based um, you know healthcare technology company if you will from city block to remedy you know Um ah zoc doc right? and everything in between. So so really well respected there and I would argue that you know psychiatry was tiny. I mean we were really small. We maybe were 20 people 25 people or something or not even right on the corporate side and so yeah, we didn’t need those folks and I think I remember when josh when when he flew in to interview here. He he he said I’m just not clear why you need me right now you know I was expecting this thing to be not running well and that’s why you needed an operations and my view was really saying. Um, I know that psychiatry is going to be incredibly large I know that we’re going to be employing thousands of physicians you know in the future and I want to build the base now and I know that if I bring in senior executives while it’s going to be very costly and probably didn’t make the right financial decision at that time to do that right? It was definitely against.

Robert Krayn: But people would probably argue given where we were financially um I would argue that when you fast forward now. They’ve got this historical knowledge that that’s just priceless in terms of why we did things early on how we did them and I would I would probably argue that both of them joined the company too early. To be totally honest I would say that Talkchiry wasn’t like tochiatry was not not not beneath them necessarily but it was too small like they they didn’t you know? and so now now it’s at a point where we grew into it and I think that what people do a lot is the reverse they’ll bring in a senior leader. For a certain phase of a company and then have to get a different one for the next phase of the company and I think that the knowledge gap that you you that you lose when you have that turnover is infinitely more costly than investing in the right person upfront. So that that’s kind of the the kind of the thoughts and it’s worked out really well for me, it might not work well for everyone depending on when you’re raising and and can you finance those those types of things but it worked worked really well for us and so we’ve very low turnover. Basically no one that I can think of off the top of my head on on the C suite.

Alejandro Cremades: Um, and then in this case Also, how do you think about the ideas you know getting the best ideas from people in the organization, especially the senior guys. You know how do you go about that.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, so you got to listen to the whole part that I’m going to say it’s a 2 parter right? And if if you if you just listen to the first part. It sounds really bad but but I say it to everyone and I’ve I fully believe that this is the best way to do it I expect everyone to operate this way when they’re talking to me as well, right? And so um. I believe that I am 100% right up until the moment I realize I’m wrong. So you can see why the second part is super important. Um, and I think that you have to have that level of diligence and confidence in in what you’re saying to truly believe that your I’ve did all all all the work here. I’ve done all the research I believe I’m 10000% right? But you have to maintain the possibility that you’re wrong and keep an open mind that someone else might be right right? And the goal of that conversation is really, you should both come out with 1 idea that is the best idea and it doesn’t matter whose it is at the end of the day because you know you’re fighting for it because you believe you’re hundred percent right but you also believe and a lot of times. It’s. How you say things you could say the same thing 5 different times and on the fifth time you get it and you’re like oh I get it now you’re right I’m wrong totally makes sense. Let’s go and do that and you know if you have that mindset and you let people know upfront that that’s how it’s going to be and you expect pushback and you encourage pushback. Um. Then I think you’ll get the best ideas and you know we’ll have people who you know pull me off to the side and and kind of say like hey you know Robert I I think I think you’re really wrong here man no offense I either think you’re totally fundamentally wrong and I was like great tell me why like I’m interested.

Robert Krayn: You know what? I mean it’s never oh you know pulling rank that doesn’t exist right? and and so I think that that’s the best way to get some of the best ideas you encourage people to create them and and ah push back when you you know when you think something should be done and not just blindly follow. So.

Alejandro Cremades: So then let’s talk about vision then because we ready to onboard you know all these people and and also the investors you know vision I’m sure it was a critical one. So imagine you were to go to sleep tonight and you wake up in a world Robert where the mission of Talkiatry.

Robert Krayn: Yep.

Alejandro Cremades: Is fully realized I mean that vision that you you know share with everyone. What would that world look like.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, well that would be ah, a fun time. Um I think that there would be you know a seamless integration between physical and mental health I think there’s a really big difference between those today whether it’s who’s paying for the care whether it’s how you seek the care. You know whether it’s reimbursed or not whether it’s even accessible right? Physical. Healthcare is a lot more accessible still has issues. But I think you end up in a world where there is There’s really no stigma or separation between the two and I think you end up in a world where no matter what type of behavioral health care that you need. It’s accessible and you know where to go to get it and I think that’s one of the biggest issues today where you might know you need help but you have no idea what level of care. Or where to go um and you would look at Talkiatry and say listen they might not be the right place for me. But I trust their opinion and I’m going to go and ask them and they’re going to help me get to the right place whether we whether we provide the care or we direct them to the right level of care and so I think you know that’s a world. That’s really interesting I I also think that you know mental health care in that in that future. Um. Is really a value based environment and and to give you the background for for those that might not be super involved in healthcare right for for for some listeners listeners I think that um you know, right now. There’s this big concept of fee for service which is you see a doctor. The doctor gets paid for seeing you. Does not matter if you get better or don’t get better. The doctor got paid for seeing patients and so you know I think that in an incorrect way. Sometimes it can incentivize you know things that aren’t related to outcomes how many patients have we seen today right? and so when corporations get into healthcare they’re looking at these things and and they start to push for incentives that don’t align.

Alejandro Cremades: Um.

Robert Krayn: And the patient’s incentives don’t align with the doctor’s incentives don’t align with the insurer’s incentives. Don’t doesn’t align with the the practices incentives and I think when you look at value-based care. That’s really aligning everybody saying every single person in this equation wants the patient to get better faster if the patient the patient obviously is much happier, right? If they get better the insurance company pays less if the patient got better. The doctor of course wants their patients to get better That’s how they view success. Um, and that the compensation for getting that patient better um is is really driven by that for example and not just how many patients you saw today and so I think that’s a very difficult thing to do. There’s no blood test for depression. So how are you proving outcomes. That’s something that pychiatry has been working on since day one and we believe you know driving that change and moving to a value based environment for mental health care and so I think that that’s that’s what the vision looks like it’s a big one. But I think it’s it’s it’s entirely possible.

Alejandro Cremades: So I Guess say we’re talking about the future you know and I want to talk about the past but doing so with a lens of reflection imagine I bring you back in time you know to that moment where you are I guess you know at that moment you know where you were dealing with all this situation that happened in your apartment and. Let’s say now you finally it sounds like you you got the idea you’re starting to look into it. Let’s say give you the opportunity of whispering to your younger self at that point where you were like in the ideation you know mode and you’re able to give.

Robert Krayn: Yep.

Alejandro Cremades: 1 piece of advice to that younger Robert 1 piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why giving what you know now.

Robert Krayn: Um, yeah, that’s ah, that’s a tough one I’m sure a lot of people you know who who you speak with here you know, find it difficult to do that because of where we are today right? So so everything’s gone I wouldn’t wouldn’t change much but 1 thing I would go back and tell myself is um, you know, um, stay committed to your. Vision. You know don’t don’t get bothered by the noise and just stay steadfast and whether that’s and that applies with a lot of things whether it’s a business model whether it’s speaking to investors. For example, right? and I think if I didn’t follow my own advice. You might end up with something that doesn’t look like pychiatry right? you might end up with something that is not where we are today and so. Um, I think that nobody knows your your your business or your journey better than yourself and you’ll ah more people that doubt it than than that agree with it and so I think that that it’s really important that you just stay very focused and very steadfast on um, you know what you want to do and executing that and then if you fail you only have one person to blame you know yourself. Um, versus versus listening to others advice.

Alejandro Cremades: I love it so Robert for the people that are listening that will love to reach out and say hi. Where’s the best way for them to do so.

Robert Krayn: Yeah I mean I think you know connecting with me on Linkedin is always great for sure and I post a lot about what Talkiatry has done and things like that. But also you know via email you know Robert Dot Crane at I mean I’m ah I’m a really accessible person you know, um and so we love love to talk to folks. About the space or just about you know Journeys give advice if I have it, you know or hear advice. You know someone might be listening saying I’ve done this before I got to give them. This’s like I’d love to hear it you know I’m very humble from that standpoint right.

Alejandro Cremades: I love it? Well hey you see you know so Robert thank you so much for being on the deal maker show today. It has been an absolute honor to have you with us. Thank you.

Robert Krayn: Yeah, thank you so much for having me I Really appreciate. It’s been really fun.


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