Luka Ivicevic is now on his third startup. After having his highly successful fintech company acquired, he’s now on a mission to help this generation to live to 150 years old. His latest startup, Index Health, has attracted funding from top-tier investors like LAUNCHub Ventures and Inovo VC.
In this episode, you will learn:
- Functional medicine
- Finding product market fit fast
- How to fire cofounders
- Creating positive board dynamics
- His top advice for other aspiring entrepreneurs
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About Luka Ivicevic:
Luka Ivicevic is the Co-Founder / CEO at Index Health. Additionally, Luka Ivicevic has had 1 past job as the Co-Founder at Penta.
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Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:
Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So today. We have a very exciting founder. You know a founder that is a repeated founder one of those that is the type of the ti 0 founders that you know have been very successful. They’re very hard to come by. And they obviously once they do it. They do it again and they now you know he’s on another rocket ship. He sold his last company and they you know we’re going to be talking about building scaling co-founders investors board dynamics you know, especially the ones that are not so favorable. Not so positive where there’s going to be great lessons for all of us. You know to learn from him. And then without further ado. Let’s welcome. Our guests today Luka ivisovicch welcome to the show. So originally born and raised in New York City so give us a walk through Memory Lane Luca how was life growing up.
Luka Ivicevic: Hey thanks for having me happy to be here.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, not too bad I mean it’s a bit rough growing up in New York City I realized that ah with for my friends that haven’t lived in New York but ah, yeah, born and raised in New York City lived there until I was 18 moved to Paris France to study philosophy. At the American University Of Paris um my last two years I mainly focused on computer science within those last two years I started my first company which was a social network we raised half a million that company ended up going bust I finished school on time then ah moved to Berlin thinking. What do I do next. Didn’t have any idea about ah about you know, generally the whole venture world and ultimately a friend of mine and I came up with idea to start pentabank which is today 1 of europe’s largest online banks the company went on to raise over eighty million in capital ah banked fifty five thousand businesses with several billion deposits. Before being acquired in August of 2022.
Alejandro Cremades: So there. We go. You know that was the elevator pitch. You know nobody could do it better than you look at now. Let’s go Let’s go back in. You know, a little bit in time. Let’s say let’s do ah ah you know back backing in in your journey. Um I want to ask you? You know what did you learn from. You know, obviously your parents you know went from croatia to to New York City you know to try to ah get a better future. You know for the family you know I’m sure that you learned a lot I mean I’m an immigrant myself so I definitely you know? um, really relate you know to those types of stories. How was it for you. You know, seeing your parents you know, like really working hard and. And pushing things. Forward. You know for the family.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, sure. Um, so my so both my parents were always huge readers. So I mean growing up was you know reading was central to what I was doing um and still is super central to what you know to what I’m building now and generally let’s say my life. Um, so I would mainly look at it I think. 50% of me growing up was definitely my parents I’d say the other 50% were the streets in New York um so I started also selling sneakers at the age of 1314 so there were exclusive nikesbs and jordans and if anything that was really my first business. So. Um I guess a mix of my parents but also the streets.
Alejandro Cremades: And 1 thing here that obviously you know the entrepreneurial drive you know was there. You know you got the bug early on just as you were saying selling sneakers. But. Why moving to Paris you know you had the incredible universities here in the us some of the best in the world. So what? what was their drive behind. You know, wanting to get out of the Us.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah I was just getting a bit tired of New York um I guess after 18 years so my parents were pushing me to do something new something a bit different and what’s a better place to study than ah Paris and in english for that matter. So it’s kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding you know obviously different different cultures different perspective I guess how did your world view and and the way that you look at problems you know, perhaps a you know shifted as a result of being able to take a look. What’s outside of the us or New York city
Luka Ivicevic: Ah.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, it’s funny because we got ah we got a letter from the president of the university saying welcome to the university and coming to the best city in the world and when I read that I said there’s no way I think New York is the best city and only moving to Paris did I realize that there’s actually something more than New York um for those new yorkers listening bait. Everybody from New York thinks New York is the best city in the world. The reality is that there is actually just so much more than than just you know one city and 1 way of thinking and I think what Paris gave me was a dramatically different way just to think about life and to think about relationships and ultimately what I want to do with my life.
Alejandro Cremades: So then talking about what to do with your life. You know at at 19 you know you’re like hey I think I want to I want to build something and you know you were you went at it. You know with a with a social network and you raised some money there. Why why it didn’t work out what happened.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, so that company we started with a couple of friends. So Actually the the guy I actually started with I ended up starting penta with him and then I so ended up starting Index is what I’m doing now the medical company. Um, and we got a bunch of friends on board and it was basically like a big. You know bro group of friends just like sitting around talking a lot and we actually just didn’t do much. Um and so it was just something that wasn’t serious I mean how we got the money is a different story but it was more like you know I guess we were very convincing but I think it was more you know we just had basically not a good team. Um. We put together. So and that’s just kind of been a reoccurring topic from you know, different ventures I’ve seen but also also the things that I’ve built so.
Alejandro Cremades: So what was that list one that you took from that experience because I’m sure it was painful.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, that lesson was hire people who are much much smarter than you are. That’s that’s the 1 thing I took away from that first experience.
Alejandro Cremades: So then you moved to Berlin and you got your first job. Obviously you went back to school all that stuff and then eventually moved to Berlin and got your first job and you didn’t like it why why was that the case.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah I hated that job so I was there for about six weeks um I was more or less like a software consultant and it was just the most uninspiring unexciting thing. Um and I didn’t particularly like the people I was working with either I think I thought they were nice guys. Um I just you know just didn’t like the the vibe of it. And I wanted to build my own dream and I thought to myself you know if I can raise half a million to nineteen I can probably do much better at the age of 22. Um, so I just I was just inspired if I want to build my own dream I don’t want to build somebody else’s that was probably my main motivation.
Alejandro Cremades: So then Penta came knocking so how did the whole idea of penta come together and and how do you guys put the band and and got to work. Okay.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah I mean the reality is is that business banking at the time really sucked. Um, it took three weeks to open a business bank account. You have to go to the branch. It was just it was just a shit experience. Um, but d to c banking was exploding so you had n 2 6 you had revolution. These types of companies in europe are growing quickly but nobody was looking at b 2 b banking and so my co-founder from that 19 year old company and I ah we said hey why don’t we build a small bank for why? don’t we build build a bank for small businesses. Um, and that’s ultimately where the idea of panta came came by.
Alejandro Cremades: So I guess for the people that are listening what ended up being the business model of Pinta how are you guys making money there.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, so it was a subscription model. You would pay basically $9 as a base rate for a business bank account. We would make money from fx for those fintech listeners. We’d also make money from the interchange. So every time you pay with a card. We we get a certain percentage from the merchant. So.
Alejandro Cremades: And and then also obviously now with your next business we’re going to be talking about in just a little bit. You know that’s more in New York and then also in Miami where you guys have the offices but with with this one you know with with Penta Basically you guys started this out of Berlin and you know you ended up making this a meaningful operation there in Europe how was it different. You know to operate a business in Europe versus you know, maybe what you’re experiencing in the Us.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure so when when I like when we started penta we had absolutely no money I had to ask my parents for for a $500 um to live for those extra three months and so we sat around all day we we built a simple website saying. Sign up for penta leave your leave your email on the waitlist type of thing. Um and we went on Twitter and started tagging people. We liked over 20000 likes 20000 posts believe it or not so we were just hustling trying to build it out so we had very little knowledge of actually building but we learned a ton. Um, we then applied to an accelerator. We got in because we had a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand at that point and people on the waitlist. Um, and so it was kind of like a very rough way to build given that we didn’t have any hard skills other than engineering skills. Um, and so I’d say the dynamic wasn’t I wouldn’t say Europe versus us I would look at it more like. Who are we at the age of 22 and not knowing what we’re doing but I’m sure you know the Mark Andstein question of what’s most important product team or market. In our case, the market was able to just suck us out and actually built it out even though our team I wouldn’t say necessarily was great.
Alejandro Cremades: Now let’s talk about that. You know, let’s talk about team and and you know just before we we go into that. Let’s talk about you know investment you guys raised quite a bit of money prior to the acquisition. How much money do you guys? raise 80,000,000 and and what was that journey of raising that money.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure we raised 80000000 in capital.
Alejandro Cremades: You know from one cycle to the next. So.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure, um, yeah, it was ah it was a fucking nightmare I can I can tell you well I dont buy occurs on these. But yeah I mean our first investment was fifteen k which which we survived with 4 people believe it or not then it was 100 k and then you know and then the money just kept going like two million here seven million there but after every fundraise it was more or less like we had basically three months of cash left I’d say until about series series b one series b hit where we raised a 30000000 series b roughly. That’s when you know we had a ton of cash. We became a super big business and things were were a bit smoother I’d see in the fundraising route. But. Getting to basically let’s say one hundred or two hundred k in revenue was extremely difficult. You know nobody wanted to pay for a bank account. Ah Germany is is ah is a very hypersensitive market in this conservative market. So it was just difficult. Um, and I think it was actually difficult for everybody I don’t think you know. Fintech sounds very glamorous. It’s all over techwrunch but it’s actually a very difficult market to raise money in.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah know I hear you why? what? What makes it so difficult. Okay.
Luka Ivicevic: I’d say the unit economics. Um the unit economics in particular aren’t great, especially at small scale. Um there’s also the compliance angle etc. But you know today, everybody’s saying like unit economics are important but you know when we were fundraising in 2016 through 20 21 in reality. Um uni economics were always the focus of it and so you know banking as a whole is also super low margin. So um, if anything what I’ve learned for what I do now is like you know your unit economics need to be sharp if you plan to raise money and if you plan to grow it. So. The better your revenues the less dependent you are essentially on venture funding.
Alejandro Cremades: Now one of the biggest lessons here you know, ah that that happened with pentime was choosing the right people whether that was the right cofounders or the right investors and it sounds like the choice on both was shaky.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure.
Alejandro Cremades: You know and I’m sure that you know you’ve gone about it. You know in a different way now with your next company which we’re going to be talking about you know, eventually now. But what happened there with cofounders because you fire some of them.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure? Yeah I think there was there was 2 phases of the company. There was the young phase like we just need to start it off and get it together and I think the team that was building then was right for that moment but we got to a certain stage where those people were actually holding us back and we actually needed just a. Basically move on to the next Level. So I think there’s a huge difference between what a seed team is and then what a series a and Beyond team is and in our case I’d say penta from the beginning was always a very um volatile and let’s say you know it was a more very banking aggressive which you would imagine kind of in a movie. Was a very strong character obviously including myself but there was a bit too many strong characters in the room with not enough decisions being made and we basically had to make some cuts that are actually eventually better for the Business. So I think bad atmosphere is led to bad outcomes and um, we just you know purely also just didn’t enjoy working with some people.
Alejandro Cremades: And how were you guys able to ah come to um to a good Team. You know, pay finish line because I mean I’ve I’ve experienced that too with prayer companies and where I had cofounders that perhaps you know like not were you know they were not the right fit you know for whatever stage you know the company was in. But but those conversations were not Easier. So How were you guys were able to navigate those murky waters with co-founders.
Luka Ivicevic: I think it just Bob being straight up to the person and telling them hey this is what it is um this is how you know we’re we’re essentially ending the relationship and you know let’s figure it out. These are the terms. You know whether it’s a three month notice or a 6 or whatever it may be but. I think you know and then you know these people took shares home. Um, you know they they obviously came out with a good exit and so I think it’s just about being respectful at the end of the day. But um I think it’s such an important thing to do most startups that I see actually have very bad founder dynamics. Um. And they you know either they fight a lot but they’re so driven by that vision that they just don’t want to give up on it. But um I think that if somebody’s holding you back. You just have to get rid of them either. You have to leave for the sake of the company or or they need to go but what somebody needs to essentially go. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Ah, now on on the cofounder side you’re able to to have those type of divorces. But with investors you can’t so how were you guys able to navigate you know, ah murky water still with the investors and especially when you had bad board dynamics.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah I think ah the I see a big mentality problem at Penta was a bit of that a survivor kind of mentality like we need to take the money even if it’s the Devil’s money that was a those that was a phrase that we we repeat often and um I don’t I don’t think we necessarily took took the devil’s money ever. But. But um, but it was kind of that desperation move. We were making decisions out of fear. You know we were scared of like if we don’t do this What do we do? So um I think while while a good board cannot make a great company that was ah that was a big saying going on when when Twitter was getting acquired because you know arguably Twitter Twitter’s bored completely fucked up what they’re doing but ah, a bad board can essentially ruin a company which I think was definitely the case or almost the case with Twitter’s in in Twitter’s case and I think that was actually largely. Also that’s actually a reason why all so left venta where I just don’t think that the dynamics between ah our team and the management. And and particularly what the board looks at we’re actually matching things. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Got it now now. Obviously you’ve experienced bad board dynamics and now you’ve experienced good board dynamics. So what is the difference between one another.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah that’s really important. Um I think a good board understands their limits so a Vc can’t help you build a business and I think a lot of board members or let’s say the pen to board but board members often thought that you know the people they invested in they knew more than them. Um, and I think that’s just a bad mistake I mean these these are people I just wouldn’t necessarily raise money from again I mean you know I wish them the best of luck but it was just an understanding of of you know this is what we’re good at this is what you’re good at let’s match these 2 visions together while um in ah in a good board. it’s more of an enablement you know it’s more of like a what do I need to help you and if I can’t help you you know like then I’m just not going to really push for it so enabling a management team to do what they do best is is important sometimes just being silent can actually be the most important with that said though. Um, what I’ve experienced from great investors is that they are super engaged and they ask the right questions. It’s more of a what do I need to ask my portfolio company rather than what do I need to tell them or what do they need to do.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, so it sounds more like the type of board where it’s more like the management reporting to them versus making the board work for you and helping you on strategy so that you can implement that no.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, exactly I think it was I think it’s definitely more that I also think kind of founder like a founder board relationship is that a founder needs to run the board and the company and the second a founder loses that um, where it’s the board leading it. Which was also a reason that I just left I didn’t think the company was for me anymore was that it was actually the opposite where it was more of like a boer type of thing. Um, and so that I just think that dynamic’s important. So for those founders listening out there. It’s like you need to lead these conversations and you actually need to run it and if you don’t you’re just going to lose that. That sense and and you’re going to lose that power. So.
Alejandro Cremades: So then tell us about the acquisition because you know eventually you know you guys ended up doing a transaction with Conto. So how was that how did that transaction come about and and I know that you know obviously there is some confidentiality you know restrictions there we can’t go into terms or stuff like that. But. But tell us about the process. How did it happen and then what was that journey all the way until inking the deal.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure, um, so I know the I know the founders of conto from back in the day in 2016 we used to. We used to chat briefly and hey how are things doing. They’re always a year ahead of us um I think Alex and and the team are are absolutely exceptional. Founders. Um, and. Alex actually reached out to me in in January of last year asking if I could introduce if I can introduce him to to the existing management. Um I didn’t think much of it. Um I just heard a couple of weeks later that you know what the reason of that was actually and I think the synergy actually makes sense so conto had. Had a vision of expanding across Europe while Penta was very focused on Germany and the acquisition made sense where cracking the german market is is almost an impossible feat and it’s something that we were able to crack at scale and so acquiring it actually made a lot of sense. So. What that actually looked like I mean yeah, the valuation multiple increased dramatically from the last raises. So um, you know I actually have no complaints on that but it’s always a question you know, do you want to buy or get bought I rather buy. So I think that’s that’s probably the big difference in in ambition ah doesn’t it made some board members happy. I think that’s what you know? probably why I wouldn’t work with them or or people in the management. But I think it was at end I think it was a good outcome and I think that you know the the company is better fit and in in conscious hands. So.
Alejandro Cremades: So then let’s talk about turning the page so you turn the page you know and obviously index health you know your next day idea comes into play now. This was all the result of um, really experiencing. You know the unfortunate news. Of your mother being diagnosed with um with an autoimmune disease and that kind of like you know, really sparked. You know the the idea you know of what would eventually you know come as index health so walk us through what was that. You know process like how all of a sudden you know you started to incubate the thought of really making a difference based on what you had seen with your mom and and how you find yourself today. You know leading this company.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure. Yeah, so my mom was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in 2017 and she ran down the typical traditional medicine route. She got more and more medication from each doctor she went to with her health only getting worse and after about a year for health getting worse. She said you know I don’t want to continue doing this. She did some research found a doctor that specialized in precision medicine and what they did is they took advanced lab tests they diagnosed the root cause of why did this disease suddenly pop up at the age of 60 and based on that they created a very personalized plan tailored towards her so everything from nutrition lifestyle changes supplements medication but with the goal of getting off a medication and they fine tuneed it so they kept working with her and after actually after about a year of of that work she reversed what she had or basically put it to a stable 0 and it just got me thinking. Why isn’t all of medicine this data-drive and this personalized like why don’t we do this for cancer. Why don’t we do this for diabetes child autism right? early alzheimer’s there’s actually there’s just so many you know acne maybe like like weight problems. There are just so many problems that we can actually handle with such a. Precise way of doing of doing medicine. It’s also by the way refer to as functional medicine. Um, and so that’s and you know and that’s the vision of the company. How do we make this reality of medicine a reality for a billion people globally um and with that description that’s exactly what the company does. So we focus in chronic disease. We also do.
Luka Ivicevic: Ah, biohacking and and and and and longevity. Um, which I’m a patient of myself. Obviously so.
Alejandro Cremades: That’s amazing I mean obviously now I there’s a lot of longevity is ah is a really big one now I guess for the for the people that are listening. You know to get it. You know what? what? what ended up being the business model here with Index health.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure so we currently charge a flat monthly subscription fee which is $200 or 109 to $9 per month. Um, we’re now getting enrolled with insurance companies to be able to offer this so our goal is accessibility today functional or precision medicine is generally a wealthy person product. Um, and so what we what we’re trying to do now is make this extremely accessible to everybody. Um, so that that’s more or less the business model.
Alejandro Cremades: And then when it comes to product Market Fit You know? that’s one of your suits. You know that’s saying something that you exceed at you know as well with fundraising and choosing teammates obviously based on prior experience but I guess on Product Market Fit You know what does it look like when you’re able to achieve product Market fit in. Any anything that can be done to accelerate. You know that process of having things flying off the shelf.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, so at Penta our product market fit was we launched a product got in maybe 50 maybe a hundred customers barely and we just kept hearing the reoccurring topic of I need a business bank account that that is for businesses that are incorporating. It’s a very specific thing for german. Businesses and with that lesson we we launched that within a couple of weeks and we you know 10 x the business literally within three months um and so that was kind of a more or less I’d say a pretty quick way to get to product market fit for Penda and you know just pure listening customer feedback with index on the opposite hand we’ve been. You know product market fit has been a never ending process. Um our biggest lever to product market if it wasn’t the product itself but it was actually how we communicate what we do and so today if you go on our website. It probably looks like a basic website but there is so much psychology and. Data behind every single button and every single flow that we actually take people um and we know our conversion rate super well so it came down to how well do we actually communicate this and you know it came from a quantitative aspect of you know where are people clicking. How are people flowing to a qualitative just interviewing customers and saying like hey. What’s not very clear here but that process itself ah actually took about a year if not a year in six months
Alejandro Cremades: And then what about a fundraising here for Index Health How have you guys gone about finding the investors and and how much capital have you guys raised so far.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure so we’ve raised slightly over 5,000,000 in capital at the moment that was our seed round. Um finding investors I’d say was you know you would like I thought coming into this being a second time founder things are going to be easier but it was actually extremely difficult. So we pitched to over ninety investors for our seed round and ah to invested ah plus some handful of angels and looking at that aspect. Basically when we started pitching we had maybe about five Ten k in monthly reoccurring revenue. And in about three months from there we had about 20 to thirty k so let’s say we roughly tripled our revenue in that time period and that’s when the conversation completely changed with all investors and that kind of goes back to my initial emphasis of your unit economics and your growth rate coupled together is your biggest lever to. To fundraising.
Alejandro Cremades: And they also when it comes to ah to investors you know the vision I’m sure it was a big one. You know that you were sharing with them. So imagine if you were to go to sleep tonight look On. And you wake up in a world where the vision of Index Health is fully realized what does that world look like.
Luka Ivicevic: Sure I I genuinely think that our generation could live um to honor fiftieth if not even more. Um, so I think that um you know chronic disease can be eliminated and we could actually reverse it I also think that longevity is within our grasp not to mention everything that’s going on. The genomic side of things obviously um and you know or you know engineering as a whole right? So I think that um looking at it from from that perspective that I think we could eliminate chronic disease like cancer diabetes. Um and other things you know and other ailments. So.
Alejandro Cremades: I mean it’s it’s it’s same remarkable when you say one hundred and fifty years because you know people would think oh my god look I is is crazy. You know, thinking that we could extend things so much. But if you take a look at the at prior history. You know, like two hundred years ago being able to make it to like 30 or forty years old I mean. It was unbelievable. It was quite a success so you know now with modern medicine. You know, like now you see people going to over a hundred right? and it’d say you see it. You know, repeatedly nowadays. So what else? do you think you know needs to happen. You know for for us, you know to be able to reach. Let’s say one hundred and fifty years
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah.
Alejandro Cremades: We could fast forward.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, so what kills me is that when you. So if you look at any graph that correlates ah health to wealth the wealthier. You are the longer you live and that really kills me um and that purely comes down to accessibility. So I think the first thing is that people need access to advanced form of diagnostics but also treatment. I think that’s the first half of the equation. The second half is that people need to know what drives sickness so you know if we put in the wrong gas in our car. The car stops working. But if we put in you know tens of thousands of of trash. You know, essentially food within our body people are surprised that we get cancer and all sorts of different. Health problems and I think it’s understanding certain drivers. But also what actually to fix based on those drivers is going to be critical in actually helping us so that’s just on like how people are living and then there is you know, ah other advanced forms of treatment. Let’s say peptide therapy you know Gene Therapy I don’t even want to get it to at the moment but I’m saying like. Those additional things are to give us that extra boost right? that our genetics may not be able to play into. But I think that the first step is how do we bridge the wealth gap and how do we increase accessibility and the second thing is just a from a diagnostics being aware of what’s driving it and essentially you know how do we essentially prevent it and then again. Peptides and you know genomics and everything else is just a whole new ballgame. How we can extend that even further. So.
Alejandro Cremades: That’s amazing. So obviously here you know we’ve been talking about the future but I want to talk about the past and doing so with a lens of reflection. So let’s say you know like I was to put you into a time machine Luka and I bring you back in time I bring you back in time. Maybe to that moment where you were you know in in Paris they’re you know you know terra’s you know, enjoying the eiffel tower whatever that is and you had the opportunity of sitting down with that younger self that younger 19 year old that is thinking about maybe starting a company you know of your own. If you were able to sit down right there without younger Luka and give that younger lookout 1 piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why given what you know now.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah I would I would definitely emphasize ah worry less enjoy life more? Um, it’s not to say not to work hard. But um I feel like um sometimes you work so hard that you’re so masked by. Everything that’s happening at work that you just seen to step out for a second and I feel like stepping out has has been the 1 thing that’s helped me repeatedly in being better at what I do so my work is is my life. Um, but stepping away from that and you know just having fun with friends going out. Um I think these things really awaken you and help you. Look at things much differently so you can actually do better at life. So I would in all in all I would say you know worry less and and you know keep a smile on.
Alejandro Cremades: I Love that for the people are listening look at what is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, you can follow me on Twitter L u k a I v I c e v um, that’s probably the best way at the moment.
Alejandro Cremades: Amazing! Well hey Luca thank you so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been an honor to have you with us today.
Luka Ivicevic: Yeah, thanks Slide I Really enjoyed it.
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