Neil Patel

I hope you enjoy reading this blog post.

If you want help with your fundraising or acquisition, just book a call click here.

Joshua Goldbard is on a mission to make crypto easier, more secure, and more efficient to use for everyone. His startup has already made important contributions to this venture, as well as finding a skill for great timing. The company, MobileCoin has attracted funding from top-tier investors like Ty Baisden, Matt Mullenweg, Valhalla Ventures, and BlackTower Capital.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • How MobileCoin is so much more secure than bitcoin and Ethereum
  • Launching a startup in a space where regulation remains unclear
  • The crypto cycle



This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit to get 10% off your first month.

For a winning deck, take a look at the pitch deck template created by Silicon Valley legend, Peter Thiel (see it here) that I recently covered. Thiel was the first angel investor in Facebook with a $500K check that turned into more than $1 billion in cash.

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The Ultimate Guide To Pitch Decks

Moreover, I also provided a commentary on a pitch deck from an Uber competitor that has raised over $400 million (see it here).

Remember to unlock for free the pitch deck template that is being used by founders around the world to raise millions below.

About Joshua Goldbard:

Joshua is a founder at MobileCoin, a cryptocurrency technology company, and a founding partner at Crypto Lotus, a cryptocurrency-focused hedge fund. He really likes sound amplification devices.

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Connect with Joshua Goldbard:

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So super excited about the guest that we have today. We’re gonna be talking about building scaling financing getting you know like a bunch of money over launch I mean you name it I mean all the adrenaline in between. So I guess without furtherdo. Let’s welcome our guest today. Joshua Goldbard: Goldbart welcome to the show.

Joshua Goldbard: Um, thank you so much for having me Alejandro I’m incredibly excited to be here.

Alejandro Cremades: So originally born and raised in California in Mulberry and even your family you know I say involved in the incorporation of the town so give us a little bit of ah walk through memory lane. How was life growing up.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so I grew up um on the peninsula in just south of San Francisco and it was a really interesting place because it was like a really high academic achieving area. Um, one of the things that’s interesting is that a lot of people don’t know this but East Palo Alto where Facebook now is. Was actually like the deadliest city in America in the 90 s when I was growing up and so it was this very sort of peaceful like high academic achieving area that was right next to a very rough area and I think that that caused a lot of the kids to kind of mix together and it really showed me that there are many different sides to life growing up. And I think it’s something that has given me compassion for just the entire world. There’s a lot of different human experience that people go through when they’re young.

Alejandro Cremades: And in your case, you even went through your own experiences very early on at 15 What happened.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so when I was 15 there was a series of medical things that happened in my family that resulted us in having what I would describe as a very shifting economic circumstances. It’s a very common american thing to have like a run-in with the medical system and then have your entire life change. And so that’s what happened to our family and at fifteen I started paying the family’s mortgage and I have not missed a payment on the the house that has been in my family since the 1920 s um since I was fifteen years old and so I think that’s that’s.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow.

Joshua Goldbard: What I consider to be my crowning artistic achievement in this life.

Alejandro Cremades: But what did you learn from that experience from really dealing with pressure dealing with uncertainty dealing with the struggle.

Joshua Goldbard: So 2 things really stand out to me one is the kindness of others I think that that is something that I just am continually humbled by in this life is just how kind people can be particularly when you’re struggling and particularly when you want to help yourself I think that is that is one of the biggest things that people look for in. Opening up with compassion. Um, the second thing is that there are a lot of times where you can be doing what you think is the right thing and it still doesn’t work. It still doesn’t solve your problem and so you have to just calibrate to what is actually working not feel not what feels good.

Joshua Goldbard: And that is a hard lesson that you learn as an entrepreneur if you want to survive.

Alejandro Cremades: And Retail was saying you know the path that you chose any particular it was telecom you know and and you were you were quite the salesman a at at and t.

Joshua Goldbard: Well, it’s funny that you say chose because the way that I got that job is I went to the most affluent street where I grew up which is berlingam avenue and I went and dropped a resume off at every store and the only one that called me back was at and t and so that’s how I got that job. It wasn’t like you know like I chose it. It was. You know they were the only one to call me back? Yeah, and so um I started doing that job and I really liked working in cell phones because you’re on like the cutting edge of new technology. You know it’s constantly being miniaturized. There’s new stuff coming out all the time and in particular I I had the privilege of working at 18 t during the launch of the iphone.

Alejandro Cremades: Um, he chose you. He chose you? Ah, good stuff.

Joshua Goldbard: Which was maybe the best time to ever be a salesperson in cell Phones. We never had anyone line up for a cell phone before the release of the iphone and people like lined up around the store. It was Crazy. We had to get you know, upgraded security and all the offices. It was just wild and so I. Was in a position to basically sell more cell phones than anyone in the history of selling cell phonees and I did so ended up being like the top salesperson on the West Coast which was at that time that was a like a huge achievement in my life. It was you know I didn’t have academic validation So I got business validation and that was very special me at the time.

Alejandro Cremades: And you were for about 10 years in telecom. So what? What? What? What? What was that push would you say that that gave you a sense of maybe there’s something out of this segment or this industry.

Joshua Goldbard: Um, yeah.

Joshua Goldbard: So I want I want to preface this just a little bit in foreshadow and say that what you learn in telecom is that the world is composed of networks of glass and copper there’s this web of interconnection that binds everything together and there are applications that run on these networks. The internet. And some of them are more are moving at ah a different pace. Some of them are growing really rapidly and if you can find the ones that are high growth. That’s where you want to be so I had gotten laid off from this job. It was it was a pm job at ah ah at what’s called an mvno. They’re basically a reseller of like t-mobile. And my friend said to me, he’s like hey Josh you should take all your severance I think it was like $10,000 and you stick all your severance and you should put it into ethereum right now and I had read satoshi’s white paper in like 2009 and I just assumed that like. It was going to fail the same way that egold and all you know liberty reserve and all the other attempts at doing digital cash had failed before this so I kind of wrote bitcoin off and I ignored it. You know to my peril for years and then finally I was there and it was you know 15 or 2016 and I just kept saying like. This isn’t happening. It’s it’s not real It’s going to go away. It’s a fad and then I said what happens if I just you know, try it. So I did and ethereum went from you know like twenty bucks thirty bucks something like that to 400 basically overnight and that was the first time in my life that I was not living paycheck to paycheck.

Joshua Goldbard: The first time that I wasn’t like completely struggling every two weeks just to make ends meet and I went to my friend and I said hey like is it going to keep doing that and he said yeah Josh welcome to crypto and obviously crypto doesn’t always go up as we we all know, but. This was a very lucky time to be interested in going into crypto but he had already put all of his money into crypto and I had already put all my money into crypto and so we asked each other you know what do you do and he kind of jokingly said you should start a hedge fund. We should start a hedge fund and we did is we got you know like a million dollars from friends. And we just basically plowed into ethereum and bitcoin and that was the right time to do it because it basically just started going crazy from there that was like the big runup that led to you know bitcoin being tens of thousands of dollars I think our first time we bought bitcoins. It was like a thousand bucks and the whole time this was happening the whole time that that bitcoin ethereum increasing in value I kept asking myself. Why is there? No consumer-facing crypto product. Why isn’t there something that’s just like insanely easy to use like Paypal. And I think if I knew what I knew today I would not have tried to build something like that because it is so hard to make a product that feels easy to use in crypto. Um, but I guess I’m getting a little ahead of myself. So.

Joshua Goldbard: I can talk a little bit about how the project that I work on now started would that be would that make sense.

Alejandro Cremades: Well well well well why don’t Why don’t Why don’t you walk us through that lunch that you had with an investor.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so we had written a 3 page white paper and so it wasn’t you know a very long white paper. It was only 3 pages long and it and it had just a few key ideas the key ideas where that has to be really fast. It has to cost almost nothing to use. It has to work on a cell phone and has to be extremely private private enough for the most advanced messaging cases in the world. We wanted to put something in the time into like facebook messenger whatsapp and signal messenger those are the kind of like 3 things that we thought we were going to do and so we went to lunch with an investor in flown in and. We actually got thrown out of the hotel that we were supposed to have lunch and that he was like renting the top floor of we arrived 2 minutes late for lunch and you know this guy’s like a billionaire and I thought he was just going to like flip the table and freak out at them. But he just said hey Josh do you know somewhere else around here to eat. Didn’t freak out didn’t you know didn’t get upset or anything. He just walked across the street as we were sitting this like random little japanese eatery and we get like salmon bowls for lunch and at the end of it. He says Josh this sounds like a good idea here is a thumb drive with. One point five million dollars of bitcoins on it. You figure out the terms like we didn’t even we didn’t have deal terms. We didn’t have a contract and I just that taught me so much about investing what I learned from that man is that.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow.

Joshua Goldbard: Trusting an entrepreneur is actually really the only choice that you have as an investor and companies that are are not powerfully founder led companies that are not. They don’t get off the ground you need somebody who’s just like going to you know light themselves on fire to make this thing happen and they need really deep. Trust and you know feeling it like this person is in it with me to be able to do that and it.

Alejandro Cremades: And what do you think this seam lester are showing you to just give you the money like that without any type of legal agreement now.

Joshua Goldbard: Um, I think that he had enough of a reputation that if I had really cheated him on the deal. It would have been hard for me to like do anything with the company. Um he he is ah a person who has a tremendous amount of bitcoins. So he’s very well known in the cryptocurrency industry. So I think if you if you do if you do a bad deal with somebody like that if they don’t feel good about it. You’re going to have a hard time reputationally with other people in cryptocurrency. It’s a small space. So I think that that was the number 1 thing is that he didn’t have a lot to lose in that deal. Um, the other thing is that the white paper.

Alejandro Cremades: So.

Joshua Goldbard: Although it was short was very clear and most white papers in crypto are extremely confusing.

Alejandro Cremades: So then what happened next after you have the money.

Joshua Goldbard: So after I had the money I went back to my computer science friends because I’m I’m a high school dropout I don’t I don’t write code. Um I think I understand computers pretty well. But I am not a person who could make mobile coin by myself just to be super clear. And I could not have written that white paper without lots of help from lots of people. So I went back to the same people who helped me write it and I said hey you know I got one point five million dollars I’m ready to do a startup and they just kind of looked at me like I was crazy and they said Josh you are not going to build a cryptocurrency for one and a half million dollars and I very naively said I said how much money do I need. And they said Josh you need like 20 or $30,000,000 and so I said okay, um, how can I get that kind of money based on where the company is um I guess what we’ll do is we will write a saft which is called a safe agreement for future tokens. And we’ll see if investors want to give us the money. Otherwise I’ll give the money back to this first investor so we showed it to a series of investors including finance and they really liked the idea and so we ended up getting $30,000,000 to do the company. So then I went back to all my my computer science friends and I was like hey I got $30000000 and they all kind of look at me and they just go what. Who gave you $30000000000 and I said well you know I’m I’m really determined to do this thing. Do you want to help me and 1 by 1 really smart people just started joining the thing and I think the reason that they joined was that I was very clear about what I knew and what I did not know.

Joshua Goldbard: And I made it really clear what was going to be their responsibility. What was my responsibility I’m going to keep the lights on and they have to write beautiful code and that’s the deal and I’m not I can help them think about it intellectually from a place of being a very ignorant person in this space. But I’m not going to do the math for them and I’m not going to do the cryptography for them. That kind of stuff is candy for an engineer like they want hard problems.

Alejandro Cremades: Got her general credit and and and and just to um for the people are listening to how much capital in total have you guys raised for this.

Joshua Goldbard: About a $40,000,000 at this point.

Alejandro Cremades: And what has been the experience of going from one cycle to the next to to get to all that money.

Joshua Goldbard: Um, yeah, so in the beginning. Ah you can raise money on ah on a white paper and then at certain points in the future. You need different levels of traction and different levels of proof that the business that you’re building is working. And has a huge addressable market that you can possibly get a big slice of and at each stage of funding. You basically have more and more proof that is required that you are on the right path and doing the right thing we’re now in a funding cycle where the world is right now where. If you don’t have extreme proof of the viability of your startup. You cannot raise money at all. It’s not like it was a few years ago where you could you know basically show up with the white paper and raise a lot of money you need a ton of signals now to get a real round together and I think that that is hardening a lot of startups. It’s making better startups now. So I think that the startups that do get funded in the cycle they’re doing the right things and they’re passing an extremely high level validation when they get funded does that make sense.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, 100% and I guess for the people that are listening to really get it. What ended up being mobile coin and and and how do you guys make money. What’s the business model there.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so mobilecoin makes a cryptocurrency network it is used in the world’s most demanding messaging clients signal messenger mix and messenger these are high performance privacy protecting messaging clients signal. For example. Is the only messaging app in the world that is trusted by the United States senate and the european parliament which are some of the most secure and demanding infrastructure and and conversations that happen in the world if it wasn’t actually private and it didn’t work those kind of people would not trust it as their. Method of choice for communicating so we built a cryptocurrency that’s now natively in signal and signal end-to- end encrypts your messages so that only you and the person you’re messaging can see them. We end to end encrypt your money. So only the person that you’re transacting with. And you can see your payments and that’s the beauty of what we’ve made is that it’s really fast. It’s really easy to use. You don’t type a big long cryptocurrency address in you just type a phone number and that’s the way that this system works and I think that is the the holy grail of crypto communication is phone numbers and usernames as the way you send payments. And having it tightly integrated so you don’t think about the crypto it just works the same way that signal you don’t.

Alejandro Cremades: And why would that be what would that be so important you know encrypting you know the money I mean why would people be so concerned around the privacy you know on on how that happens give us some examples.

Joshua Goldbard: Send me your tax. Return Let’s look at it together right now I’m going to tweet it send me how much you get paid for this podcast and all you know all all the deals you’ve done in your life and every deal and give me every one of those and we’re going to tweet them together. And then we’re going to show everyone who’s ever transacted with you in relation to all that money forever sounds pretty crazy right? That’s bitcoin that’s ethereum. That’s how that works right now.

Alejandro Cremades: Right? It really does.

Joshua Goldbard: Like that is not the way that ecommerce works. You don’t go on and everything you buy in your cart and how much you paid for it and where the money came from that you paid for it. That’s not public human society to do commerce requires a level of privacy if you remember the internet like before ecommerce.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah.

Joshua Goldbard: People didn’t transact with credit cards. You would like send a bank wire or do an ach and it took forever and it was only when we invented encryption for sending messages over the internet in a way that scaled massively ssl tls that ecommerce took off. Blockchain commerce requires blockchain encryption. We have not seen anything like what the commerce is going to look like in a blockchain decentralized world until we have layer 1 privacy protecting protocols that everyone uses.

Alejandro Cremades: So tell us about also funding 8 because you guys were quite ah active with the war in Ukraine.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so the war in Ukraine is it’s a crazy thing and I think the the beginning of the war in particular there was a tremendous amount of suffering of the ukrainian people because a lot of the infrastructure went down. 1 of the things that they were able to get back up pretty quickly was cellular networks but the banking system in Ukraine was damaged very deeply at the beginning of the war there essentially was only only cash as the way that you could operate and then they were starting to bring bank accounts back online. But sending aid into Ukraine was very difficult what we did is. We basically said you know we’re working with these ngos. They have people that they know in Ukraine that are doing real medical aid work. Um is not funding the war this is funding medical aid very specifically It’s you know, buying clothes for people. It’s buying medicine. You know gas to keep the generators on that that goes directly to civilians who need it. That’s it and so what they would do is basically we get a list of phone numbers that were in signal we would message with them to confirm who they were there be you know series of messages that did that and then we would just send money to them. And they instantaneously had money and they didn’t have to learn how bitcoin worked they didn’t have to go set up a wallet. They just turned on the payments and signal and that was it and the beauty of that is that vitalik very famously said that he had to use tornado cash which was the recent thing that was sanctioned.

Joshua Goldbard: By opac in order to send money into ukraine because he was afraid of retribution from the russians mobilecoin is just encrypted by default and so that saved a lot of people who wanted to donate from possibly being attacked and risking their security and but still being able to help workers. That we’re doing aid work in Ukraine. So I think that’s a really big difference and one of the major reasons that people need privacy. You don’t want to you know you don’t want to be hacked by the russians because you send a payment to someone to buy medicine right? That’s that’s not a thing that anybody wants.

Alejandro Cremades: And you.

Alejandro Cremades: So and you were talking about this earlier on how senate and and the parliament in in in Europe has embraced. You know what? you guys are doing now I guess you know to get it to that point parol. There’s been a tremendous amount of lessons learned. So I guess when it comes to launching a cryptocurrency that is legal. And what to do and what not to do you know in order to really accomplish that I mean what have you learned.

Joshua Goldbard: Wow, if you told me that we would be sitting here. You know in September of twenty twenty two and there would still not be any clear regulations on what it takes to launch a cryptocurrency in the United States I would have told you’re crazy I’m you know I’m six years into working at mobilecoin at this point and there’s still no regulatory clarity about what is and what is not legal to launch a cryptocurrency at all and so you talk to 10 different lawyers. You will get 10 different opinions. Even right now. And you know bitcoin’s almost. You know it’s approaching 2 decades old. At this point you know it’s it’s you know, let’s say 1415 years at this point and there’s still it’s still not clear whether if you launch bitcoin today whether it would be legal or not and you know we’re you’re approaching two decades. So I think that. The government and the regulators owe us a lot of clarity on what is and what is not legal in the absence of that you have to predict. What is the most conservative possible possible way that you can launch this and that slows down innovation a lot. But what we ended up doing is that we created mobilecoin outside of the United States because there was no clarity in the United States about what was and what and was not legal and so we you know worked with people who are not in the Us. Um, we at the people who supported the activation.

Joshua Goldbard: Traveled outside of the United States we actually met up in Tahiti to do the activation and that was because we just had no clarity about what was okay in the United States even today we don’t know so we had we just had to be very conservative and it costs a lot of money. It slowed us down. This is a way that America is really. Far behind the world when it comes to innovation right now.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding now imagine you know like if if you were to sleep to go to sleep tonight and you know wake up you wake up in a world. Let’s say five years later and in that world the vision of mo alcon is fully realized what does that world look like.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, um, great technology is indistinguishable from magic the thing that we’re building is a rosetta stone for global commerce what that means is that you can send money with privacy. Not just to anyone in the world but in the currency that they want. Do they want mobile coins they get mobile coins. Do they want dollars they get dollars. Do they want euros they get euros all this happens instantaneously in you know a couple seconds it costs basically nothing and you end up having this just magical experience where all of the things that we take for granted. With Paypal and Venmo and you know services like that they just happen and they happen non-custodally which is a completely different regulatory regime from custodial wallet services right now the way that people interact with ah. Institutions and interact with the regulatory system is all at regulated institutions. The the reporting requirements the capital requirements the management requirements. They’re all at regulated institutions. The laws between peers are extremely different particularly cross-border. So I think what we see is a level of commerce that the world has never imagined before what we want is to create an extreme economic engine that amplifies global commerce worldwide and we want to do this by breaking down the barriers between people so that people can just interact with one another peer-to-peer.

Joshua Goldbard: In a way that they’ve never thought of doing before and they can do this in a way that feels like Paypal like Venmo like those kinds of services but at a scale and a velocity and with privacy that they’ve never imagined before and I think that kind of with that kind of feature set with that kind of those kind of benefits for. The customer the level commerce you’re going to see is like nothing we’ve ever imagined. You’ll be able to safely transact directly with a factory on the other side of the world and both of you can know the payment completed in one second

Alejandro Cremades: That is just beautiful and Johan for for this project now with mobile coin you know, can you give us maybe like for the people that are listening like any insights or maybe you know anything you can share around perhaps employees or anything else. You know that you feel comfortable sharing for the people that are listening to get an idea on the scope and size of.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so mobilecoin is about 70 employees right now. Mobile coin is about 70 employees right now and we have been growing pretty rapidly and the organization continues to build very deeply during this winter cycle of crypto what we’re working on now.

Alejandro Cremades: Mobile coin and.

Joshua Goldbard: Is making all of the technology that we’ve built even easier to use making so that you can load money into the system and get money out of the system with the same fluidity with which you can transact that means that you can you know put a debit card down get money in instantly. You can put a debit card down and get money out instantly. And all the transactions in the network are still incredibly private, incredibly fast and compliant. This is one of the things that mobilecoin is extremely proud of that we’ve I think nailed and other organizations in our space are still kind of struggling with which is how do you have privacy and compliance. At the same time our view as an organization is that there’s absolutely no point in making money that you cannot spend so we’ve spent a lot of time making sure that you have this privacy that you want to protect yourself from the bad things in the world. And you can still spend your money at the institutions that you interact with every day places like Amazon places like Target so I think that is the big differentiator for mobilecoin is that it’s not just fast. It doesn’t just work on a cellphone It’s not just the most private cryptocurrency. It is compliant with regulators. And you can use it right now you if you want to as as can say it felt good if if you want to follow us on Twitter at mobilecoin and app Moby and Mo B Y Underscore app are the 2 best places to follow us and.

Alejandro Cremades: And you were talking you you were talking Josh guy go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Joshua Goldbard: I Just want to say that there’s a lot of innovation coming down the pipe right now.

Alejandro Cremades: And you were talking about earlier about the winter. The winter see so now with with crypto how what what have you experienced when it comes to cycles in crypto because you’ve been around it for a while and and and obviously you know we’re coming from this summer months you know where. Even on this last cycle you know institutions got involved and really write it up and now it sounds like winter as you said you know it’s here. So what have you learned about cycles in crypto. So.

Joshua Goldbard: The worst thing that you can do in crypto is to sell your crypto at the bottom of a cycle. It’s just like it’s the worst thing because it causes you to like mentally get out of it so that when the boom cycle comes in. You don’t think it’s real. For most people, the single best thing that they can do is just to never sell their crypto the the vault assets like bitcoin ethereum that kind of stuff because you you just aren’t going to pay attention enough to the market to try to trade the swings and even if you’re paying attention most of the time you’re wrong now. What I’ve noticed is that in crypto there are cycles that occur. Goes up. It goes down in the stock market. There are also cycles that occur what I’ve noticed about crypto is that the cycles are shorter typically than the stock market at least right now and so there have been periods of you know 10 years even longer in the stock market where stocks were depressed but. Typically right now what we’re seeing are relatively short depression cycles and long boom cycles and so I think that that’s what we’re going to see. It’s not at all clear to me that we’re at the bottom of winter yet right now just to be clear I think that there’s still a lot of very shaky things that are happening in the world economy right now. But I do think we’re going to get back to boom time at some point in the future and cryptos the asset class that I want to be in I believe that out of all the asset classes that exist crypto is the one that’s going to recover fastest from this sort of like global economic winter.

Alejandro Cremades: And if I was to put you Josh in a time machine and I bring you back. You know, perhaps to that moment that that you were you know coming across this Satoshi white paper and figuring out you know, maybe that you wanted to do something on your own and. If you had the opportunity of having a chat with that younger self and giving ah your younger self one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why you know why you know now. Ah.

Joshua Goldbard: Stop. Don’t build a business go by bitcoin you know? um I actually had a friend sit me down in like 2011 or 2012 and basically he said Josh.

Joshua Goldbard: I want you to buy bitcoin I will why will help you buy bitcoin give me a hundred dollars just trust me just do that like it’s it’s a couple dollars right now. It was a few cents. You should really consider doing this and I think it it was the first time that it like. Went to a thousand and then like clawed back to like ah a couple hundred dollars or something like that and I just said this is too volatile for me I need to you know, take care of things at home I don’t have extra money for this and he said all right? just you know don’t forget that we had this conversation and I’ve never forgotten that conversation and just it. Eats me up even today. So I think when when people do that to you when they they sit you down and they’re trying to tell you something like that give them a hundred dollars you know you can find $100 you know you’d scrape it together. You can save it. You can get $100 to take a fire on something like that and you will regret the things most of the things that you don’t do and don’t try and the things that you do try you know they they don’t all work out but some of them will you just have to try enough things.

Alejandro Cremades: I Hear you so judge for the people that are listening. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.

Joshua Goldbard: Yeah, so you can just follow us on Twitter at mobilecoin at Moby Underscore app those are the best ways to follow the information’s happening in mobilecoin. We’re super active on there. We also have a Discord It’s just the mobile qui official discord and you can find both of these on and if you ah, if you follow us on Twitter you’re going to get the fastest best updates on what’s happening in mobilecoin.

Alejandro Cremades: So I love it. Well Josh it has been on on earth to have you with us on the deal maker show today. Thank you so much for your time here. Thanks.

Joshua Goldbard: This has been a sincere pleasure. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. This has been a wonderful experience.

* * *
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