Jon Sabes is a serial entrepreneur who has built and scaled successful businesses by going public. Now he’s charting a new venture that could be much bigger. His startup, GWG Life, grew to a $500M valuation, with $3B in assets. Jon is now poised to start his next eagerly-awaited company, Longevity Partners.
In this episode, you will learn:
- Being the CEO of a public company
- The truth about SPACs versus traditional IPOs
- What’s new in the life insurance data and technology space
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About Jon Sabes:
An accomplished professional in the fields of finance, business development, and law, among others, Jon Sabes studied accounting and economics at the University of Colorado.
After earning his Bachelor of Arts in Economics/Accounting, he proceeded to the University of Minnesota Law School. Jon Sabes received numerous honors while studying law and served as an assistant to Professor Edward S. Adams.
Subsequently, he graduated cum laude with a Juris Doctor. Over the course of his career, he has held membership in professional organizations such as the American Bar Association, and the Minnesota State Bar Association, among others.
Utilizing his financial expertise and extensive experience, Jon Sabes has made a career out of structuring billions for his many businesses.
In his current position as the CEO of GWG Holdings, Inc., he conceptualizes and acts on strategies that further the company’s standing, approves and maintains an elite executive team, oversees the firm’s financial affairs, manages marketing efforts, and nurtures the company’s growth. Mr. Sabes co-founded the company by drawing on the initial support of a European Money Center Bank.
Jon Sabes strives to keep GWG growing in the niche opportunity known as the secondary market of life insurance. Since co-founding the life-insurance-focused company in 2006, he has acquired more than $1.5 billion in life insurance policy benefits.
His work also includes closing on revolving credit company deals, such as one for $250 million and another for $100 million, as well as publicly registering $250 million in secured debt offerings.
Outside of work, Jon Sabes enjoys spending time with his children and participating in athletic endurance events. He also serves on the boards of charitable foundations, such as Saving Children, Building Families.
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Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:
Alejandro Cremades: All righty hello everyone and welcome to the dealmaker show. So today we have a really exciting guest. You know I guess that has built scaled finance taking companies public I mean we’re going to be talking about.
Jon Sabes: Is ah Alejandro.lilpk
Alejandro Cremades: Doing the Ipo doing a Sps. You know everyone has been talking about Sps you know the the also the downfalls of of Sps. But also you know like really being in ah in an industry that he has been tackling left and right for several years which is life insurance. And I think that we’re going to be really enjoying you know I’m finding his story very inspiring so without further ado. Let’s welcome our guest today John savis welcome to the show.
Jon Sabes: Um, thank you All Andro great to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Alejandro Cremades: So born in Minneapolis in Minnesota so give us a little of a walk through memory lane. How was life growing up in a family of entrepreneurs.
Jon Sabes: Ah, ah yeah, growing up in a family of entrepreneurs was was Wonderful. You know they open-minded always encouraging. You know,? whatever it was you wanted to pursue to the fullest extent Minnesota’s a wonderful place to grow up. You know it’s pretty idealistic out here and. You know over the years I’ve raised my family here and you know it just well. It just doesn’t get much better in terms of that that nice life that that we all seek to have so it’s It’s been a great place to be.
Alejandro Cremades: And how was it like to see you know your family members going through the ups and downs of entrepreneur entrepreneurship. Do like you know I guess I guess experiencing that roller coaster of emotions too I’m sure that you were able to really have a first row ticket to seeing that.
Jon Sabes: I I did you know honestly I did have a first row to some pretty extraordinary events both success and challenges. Um and you know I think the the big lesson that I learned over time specifically in business. Ah, but maybe more broadly in life is that but but I think this is one really that goes into business which is you never really know when when the event is happening how bad it really is or how good it could be even even those bad events. Even those things that feel so horrible at the time may turn out to be. Ah, blessings in disguise in in other ways. So so in business. The key piece is always continuing to move forward and and and not not dwell too much on on that past reflect on it learn from it but keep moving forward because you’re going to see how things unfold and they’re likely to unfold in ways that you didn’t.
Alejandro Cremades: So in your case, you ended up studying economics. But I mean you did your your stint at Wall Street but all of a sudden law school law school. You know becomes an option I mean why law school out of all things. Yeah.
Jon Sabes: Ah, expect.
Jon Sabes: Um, you know when when I when I graduated undergrad. Um, you know I was mostly focused on skiing mountains girls having a lot of fun and and my my good friends suggested I go to work in wall street and of course that’s exactly where I wanted to be and so I went to wall street spent. Just over 2 years working on on the street got to learn the inside and out of finance and it was kind of a standard track that people would go back then into grad school after spending several years on the street and yeah, at that point I realized again maybe this is my background with being an entrepreneur or a family. And all that I had learned at that point which business school just didn’t make a lot of sense to me I mean I wasn’t interested in a human resources class I mean maybe I should have been. Maybe maybe so my team members might say I could could benefit from 1 but but the reality is is and I knew how to do a discounted cash flow valuation. You know and I knew how to model and so when I thought about going to grad school I thought about law school because I couldn’t sue anyone or I couldn’t defend myself so I knew that was going to give me some more tools and in fact, that was an an excellent decision that I made for myself. So I went to law school. And what I got out of law school were the tools really the the real tools that I think entrepreneurs really need in their toolbox. So if someone’s considering a young person going to law school. Don’t limit your career decisions to just being a lawyer of course when you’re in law school. You think you would often want to be a lawyer.
Jon Sabes: But my intention was after law school was to go back to work in in finance and when I went to back to the banks to apply for jobs. They would ask me? Well why did I go to law school and I said well because I could do all these other things that I couldn’t read and write. What I realized after law school is I did not to read and write and that’s what you really and think and that’s what law school teaches you and and um, so so that was my my career path and I was early and today it’s it’s pretty um, accepted that. You know folks from law school. Go back to investment banking and or ah pursue other careers. But at the time that was that was a little early in that in that theory and so I really was then forced to start doing my own startups.
Alejandro Cremades: And did you know like when you went to law school Did you know you did not want it to be a lawyer you just wanted that toolset you know and and and that expertise you know to to kind of like change the perspective a little bit and understand different things that you didn’t or was it like while you were getting the law degree where. You were like oh my God I Absolutely don’t want to be a lawyer but this is good to know and.
Jon Sabes: No I knew I didn’t want to be a lawyer from the outset because because I knew that billing by the hour would limit my earning potential There’s only so many hours in the day. So so I knew that I had that that was ah, not not a acceptable career path for me. And so I knew that what happens though in law school is you start to think that you should be a lawyer because it’s actually pretty fun and they train you to to really so I chase that for a little bit but I quickly. Um, knew I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur and be in my own business and the ah tools of law school really. Equipped me to understand to be an Notre What’s an lllc. What’s an Scorp what does it mean to do a merger. What? what are the tax implications I mean all of these things that if you have basic knowledge and understanding of them makes you a much more effective I I think and I can manage my lawyers much more effectively I think of my lawyers as plumbers. Or electricians or ah roofers right? they’re my they’re my subcontractors and I’m the general contractor. So I’m able to manage my lawyers because I can understand the language they’re speaking.
Alejandro Cremades: So then for you, you finished law school. Obviously as you said you know you tried knocking on a few doors but then eventually you started your own company. So how was that the process you know from the moment that you’re like you know what? maybe I’m going to go at it and this is exactly what it makes sense for me. So.
Jon Sabes: Yeah I started you know I like to say you you take an investment banker a finance person and you send them to law school and you you end up with what’s called a structured finance, professional and structured finance really is this idea of. Of structuring either. Whether it’s the cap structure or cash flows to different financing tranches within ah within a balance sheet and different instruments and so really, that’s what I I knew I wanted to pursue. It’s a really you know? Ah I think smart way of thinking about how 1 finances a company and so I ended up really. Focusing on structured finance I partnered up with my former law school professor. We began working together. We began doing consulting to different companies to use these structured finance techniques to help other entrepreneurs either raise money or restructure or whatever and we did that for a number of years until I really then. Started my first startup which happened to be in partnership with a euro money center bank that wanted to focus on structured finance and so it was really that that was the career that I was choosing and that bank really wanted a person an entrepreneur who had structured finance experience. So that I could properly build this business that they wanted to pursue so we we did it as a partnership but joint venture and I had two hundred and fifty million dollars of committed capital on day one when we closed that business and and this business was gwg holdings.
Jon Sabes: It was focused on the life insurance industry and I was really excited so that was sort of the shift of finance minding minded approach to business then into this industry called the life insurance industry prior to which I knew very little or anything about I never bought a life insurance Policy. I’d read about it I’d seen it somewhere in a commercial or in a golf game or whatever but that was about it.
Alejandro Cremades: So so so why ended it up then being the business model of G W G holdings. How are you guys making money.
Jon Sabes: Yeah, Gwg holdings was a fascinating business it it it participated in what is known as the secondary market of life insurance. It’s it’s it’s a it’s this idea that life insurance policies. Later in their life when the owner of the policy or the insured is older. Let’s say eighty years and older that policy has has standalone value on an actuarial basis alone. And and and if seniors knew about this. They would readily access the the value and so that is the business and it’s still a business today and it’s a very viable business It’s a very interesting business because you put money in the hands of the senior who without this market is really? ah. Left with either lapsing the policy worthless or surrendering it for a fraction of its value in that secondary market and so the value of that life insurance policy is predicated on. For example, a million dollar death benefit that the eighty year old will have to pay say $10000 in premiums until his or her death. And so it’s a backs solve right based upon ah on ah on a present value calculation of paying those premiums over the lifetime of the insured and so you’re doing an actuarial calculation. Um the probability of paying next year’s premium next year’s and so on and so forth and so it’s a very interesting mathematical.
Jon Sabes: Exercise and it’s all structured finance and it’s a wonderful business.
Alejandro Cremades: Now in this case, you push this company for about almost fourteen years and then you know obviously I’m sure that there was like a lot of ups and downs. But you ended up taking the company public. So. How was that how did the company develop. You know what point did you guys really turn a corner and all of a sudden you know it started really taking off towards getting to that ipo.
Jon Sabes: Yeah, you know, um, lots of ups and downs in that business. You know we we lived through the credit crisis of 8 so you know that was a big deal and and the fact that we survived that is is a testament I think to the team and. What it was. We were doing and how it was we were approaching the industry because a lot of finance companies didn’t and so we we made it through that and and at the end of the day we we really? um, built the business based on this idea of of allowing in other investors. To participate in the financial return of these policies and we ended up becoming a public registrant and then ultimately our common stock was listed on Nasdaq and so that was sort of the the trajectory through which we built the business. It. Was never a sort of big ipo per se it was just sort of 1 of these quiet little companies. You never heard about that was just sequentially growing that became a publicly registrant whose then stock was publicly listed on Nasdaq who suddenly built ah a company with over ah you know a billion dollars plus in assets. And we really had an incredible business when in about 2018 I I struck a deal with another group and and this is in the alternative asset space. So secondary market.
Jon Sabes: Life insurance is known as an alternative asset. So it’s the idea of generating non-correlated returns from alternative assets and this group specialized in alternative asset monetization and really some brilliant folks who who wanted to partner with me and transact with me and so that led to. A transaction that was structured I believe in 182 that closed ultimately closed. It was really exciting. We added hundreds of millions of dollars of equity to the balance sheet billions of dollars it was really exciting and then in 2019 they came back and they said we want to buy you out and take control of this company John that you built and. And I said well okay, you know what’s in it for me and we kind of laid out some terms and and part of that then led to my second startup because at that point what what I had really started to focus on within gwg just as ah as a little seed idea was this idea again. We were focused on predicting how long people live. That was the basis upon which we would value these life insurance policies and and through that I became aware of um, ah, new science of of molecular biomarkers of of health and aging and specifically it was the epigenetic clock discovered out at Ucla by this Dr. Steve Horvath
Jon Sabes: And I became very very interested in that as an application to the life insurance industry First of course for the life. So the secondary market but more broadly to this huge industry called the life insurance industry. So I was I was kind of interested with what what some opportunity what I saw as major opportunities for the industry. And so when when I was approached in 2019 this this group didn’t have any interest in the technology and and kind of pursuing what I was starting to get interested in and I felt these guys had a much bigger platform for doing alternative assets. They were much more experienced and. And really capable folks. So so that led to then to my second startup really which was a spin out of of my technology subsidiary that I was starting to imagine within the framework of Gwg. .
Alejandro Cremades: So then the next one is folks or technologies. So how was how was that spinout I mean so you do this spin out and then all of a sudden you are now like going with this second company obviously now with more liquidity in your pocket. So I’m sure that you know like you were able to digest a little bit more the risk but I guess. Also let’s talk about that emotional aspect because all you knew up until that point for the last fourteen years was you pushing this company. So yes, you are offered. You know like this this deal. How was it like for you to do all of a sudden you know overnight you know things change.
Jon Sabes: Well I mean it it it it changed and it didn’t change I mean it it was it was kind of for me. It was an easy decision because I felt the group that I was dealing with were super capable folks and could do a lot more with what I had built than I was able to so that was number 1 number 2 was I wasn’t done.
Alejandro Cremades: Yep, yeah.
Jon Sabes: You know I was went after the deal closed like I I went to work even harder than I did the prior day I’m not harder. But um I mean there wasn’t a moment where I took a breather I didn’t I never quote Unquote stopped to smell the roses. You know I don’t know that I don’t know how to do that and so really, it was a continuum I just.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, so.
Jon Sabes: I just plowed straight on you know and that’s that’s how I’ve approached it. We’ll get to the end of the story or the the third part of the story which was you know recently and I’ve I’ve had to stop and smell the roses because within the foxo technologies recently about almost six months ago almost to the day I was asked to resign and and and when I didn’t accept that their proposal they fired me and so i’ve’ve’ve now I’ve been in this area of of stopping to smell the roses. But I I’m one of those people where you almost have to force me to stop before I’m gonna stop.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah know I hear you now now let’s talk about this then. So so so you get that deal done with Gwg I mean incredible run you know you guys say we’re able to build it to over a 3,000,000,000 in asset say the company was valued at the 500,000,000 I mean incredible run. So now you know you get this deal now. It’s time to do the spinoff and then now you are pushing Fox Or Technology so how did that you know ah work because I mean you guys did put that you know on a really nice path. You guys did this back. You know on that and and took it public with this new. You know more popular method nowadays. So how was that how was that journey like with folks or technologies and obviously you know now you you had the experience of having been the Ceo of a publicly traded company before so it was it was not new territory for you either. So.
Jon Sabes: Yeah, exactly you know, um, again law school preps you for a lot of things and being a Ceo of a publicly traded company wasn’t something that you know I found overly challenging. Frankly, in fact, you know being public. Ah. Affords you and enforces you to do a lot of things right? and especially if you’re raising money which is disclose risks be transparent about what you’re doing. Um you know have best practices on accounting. So so in a lot of ways. It’s it’s very formative and it forces you to do things really tightly. Ah, tightly. Um, and and I I enjoy that you know, um, but you know as a as I spun foxo technologies out. Um it was interesting I I knew I needed about $70,000,000 to to kind of execute the business plan as I had it laid out that was sort of my minimum. And and we were really on a good path for raising that money. In fact, by the time I signed the letter of intent with this back I was you know a third of the way there in raising some of that capital and I was working with investment banks and I saw a pretty straightforward pathway for doing it then I got. Swept up in the in the in the sp frenzy I’ll call it. Um and I got well I don’t know I a little rosy. Maybe some rosyeyed you know I I started believing some things that maybe I shouldn’t have ah a thought.
Jon Sabes: Um, but at the end of the day you know look we had great investment banks were surrounding us I mean the likes of which you know this is a dream and they promised you $200,000,000 plus and all of this stuff and that you know in the board were industry folks and it was going to be awesome. You know and.
Alejandro Cremades: No no.
Alejandro Cremades: And and how big was the company at this point where you started to ah to get you know all these investment backs and because you had you know, pushed that for for for a little bit. You know before I’m sure that these guys were knocking.
Jon Sabes: Yeah I mean look we were a team of um I don’t I mean we we were pre-revenue first of all so we’re in a pre-revenue mode and again because I needed this I’ll call it $70000000 to turn to really get into a revenue mode and but I was building the team quite aggressively because I had raised money.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jon Sabes: And so you know we were you know, call it 50 odd people and we were building incredible things I mean you know for Foxo it was one of my greatest um ah enjoyments was building and working with that team. We were. We were doing incredible work together. Um, and I was so excited about this science of epigenetics which is a science of Gene expression. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that for a second health and longevity and what’s going on there but look I was really ah thrilled with the prospects and when when we. When we signed the deal with the spec we were. They valued the company at $369000000 per money. So for every entrepreneur you know this is your dream come true, right? Um, and and and I’m like thinking I’m living the dream and um, you know at the end of the day that it.
Alejandro Cremades: And for the people that are listening to really to really get I mean what is the difference between the traditional way of going public versus doing this back route. So.
Jon Sabes: It didn’t turn out to be so great.
Jon Sabes: Yeah that’s ah, that’s a great you know Sps aren’t aren’t there’s not so much written about Sps today as there was say two years ago and Sps was very in vogue. Ah as a way for startup or early stage companies to go public or really raise money but to do it in a public. Ah, context spac is an acronym that stands for special purpose acquisition corporation sp and the the public company. The sp raises money and it’s it’s it’s a public vehicle and the idea is is you merge with the public company who has this money. Who has industry expertise that you’re intending to execute your business against and when you do the merger you get the capital and you become public by a virtue of this merger and that is compared to a traditional ipo. And an ipo you file. What’s called an s 1 registration statement. You do a roadshow you get investors to subscribe effectively to your ipo and you raise the money and you go effective with this ipo s 1 registration statement so they’re 2 different tracks the idea of with Sps was. That this was going to be a faster cheaper more effective way for a company like foxo to raise the capital eat needed to execute the business plan and what I’m what I’m here to report and I don’t think has been widely reported is that was a myth it it didn’t it. It took longer. It was way more expensive.
Jon Sabes: It was it was brutal, especially depending on the partners you were working with which in my case, you know this deal should have closed within six months it took fourteen months to close the deal and it and in and in that timeframe the market went from everything is great for startups and and and the world is is amazing to.
Alejandro Cremades: Well.
Jon Sabes: You know every startup every pre-renue startup in technology is worth shit. That’s it and then so I was like wait what happened and so that’s that’s that’s really, ah ah an inch. That’s the the parallels between going public via via Ipo versus sp.
Alejandro Cremades: So so.
Jon Sabes: And I think some of the challenges with us back.
Alejandro Cremades: So Then in this case I mean as you were saying this thing closer on that you’re like hey where’s the money right? So So so what’s going on with the money so it sounds like you guys were building something great and then all of a sudden It just got a little toxic when you blended you know with this other Entity. So I Guess you know like what. What what unfolded after this.
Jon Sabes: Um, well I mean what what unfolded was pretty quick I mean what unfolded was right after we closed the board I had our first came to our first board meeting and my board was you know, kind of suggesting I should resign and I was like why I mean the stuff. Yes, the stock’s down. Yes, we didn’t raise the money I mean all of those things are true, but but this company foxo is amazing and the things we are proposing to do are amazing and so let’s get busy I’ve been I’ve been busy for sixty months trying to close a sp not being able to work on the goddamn business I can finally. Start working on the business and and and when the board kind of suggested this I was like well no I’m not going to resign I’m not quitting I’m just getting started and and so anyways, they fired me so I said because if you want me to go I’m not going to leave so you can fire me. You know, go fuck yourself I mean basically and so you know they did and you know the company.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah.
Jon Sabes: Look all I told my team was you guys are the best team I’ve ever recruited. Go make something with this company and if I can help you I’m here, but this board has made this decision I have no control over it I I let. I gave them the control so to speak in the closing of the merger and this is the decision they have made I have no ability to appeal this.
Alejandro Cremades: So I’m sure that that for you was say one of your toughest hours as an entrepreneur I guess saying what did you learn from this and and also how did you you know, just picked yourself back up and kept going.
Jon Sabes: Well again I didn’t really pick myself up because I never let myself fall down so you know you know don’t you know? and again you never know what? what? what? again? a bad thing could be a good thing. You know you just never know and so those are lessons I learned.
Alejandro Cremades: I Love that.
Jon Sabes: In in prior experiences and so I applied them to what it is what what I did do which was interesting and like ah I mentioned I’d never really had an opportunity to take time and reflect and so this is the first time in my I mean I’ve raised 3 kids you know my oldest is 29 years old and I think I was working pretty damn hard.
Alejandro Cremades: So.
Jon Sabes: You know from the day he was born until now where I was like because you’re in child rearing I got to make money I need to provide for my family. This is my primary and so I got to this interesting place where it’s just my wife and myself and a couple of pups and it like oh wow I can actually take a little time to think about what. What life is on the other side of this and so and and so I’ve I’ve taken that time to really reflect on what it is I want to do and be thoughtful about that and that’s been an interesting journey and what I’ve learned from that is. Good I’m the type of person who doesn’t want to retire I probably will never retire I don’t like golf I like Endur sports say I’m an ultra you know amateur ah ultra you know this that and everything else ironman this ultra run that you know I love that shit and so like.
Alejandro Cremades: So.
Jon Sabes: I just want to keep moving and then I think that’s the lesson which is just keep moving forward. You know when when they talk about this is these are lessons you learn on the ultra when you’re running a fifty mile trail run just keep moving forward. Just don’t even if you have to rest just keep moving slow down There’s this thing called active recovery. So you can. You can actively recover get your breath back but you can just keep slowly moving and so I think I was doing active recovery.
Alejandro Cremades: So so one one thing that is very interesting there. You know like from ironmance and ultra and that kind of stuff that I’m sure that you know you’ve you’ve been able to apply in business is you know when your body is is almost giving up on you. How do you keep the mind to keep everything going.
Jon Sabes: Yeah, Well I think that’s what I learned from those sports which is exactly that you know you what you learn in doing Ultras I think um, again I was never one where I had all the computers and this and that I was micromanaging I was much more ah interested in how I felt. And what you and you would you know have these very long distances and you would think how could I ever do that and so so that’s the the same journey as an entrepreneur. How could I ever do that and so you do you develop a resiliency of a mindset to be able to achieve what seemingly feels like unachievable. Ah, goals and objectives and so that’s ah, that’s a muscle that that that one needs to develop and and and and then can use that to apply people would say Well, what are you training for I say I’m training for life. You know life is a journey and I want to be in good health I Want to be resilient. All the way to the very end. You know that’s that’s my that’s my goal next room. Yeah, next for me, you know is I would say taking the things that I have learned from my career and and reapplying them in its in its best version.
Alejandro Cremades: Now what’s next for you John what’s next.
Jon Sabes: And and and and I think that’s another lesson for for entrepreneurs and and folks to learn to to think about is no matter what you always have this chance to continue to move forward and use all of your experience and knowledge and everything that you’ve gained. Um, the next version of yourself or the next version of a thing you’re doing so I’m going to go back into life insurance I’m going to go back into healthy longevity. It’s something I have a deep passion for I see tremendous opportunities for growth and change and disruption and this old. Dodgy world of life insurance. It’s the biggest financial industry that we know of that we don’t hear about and so I’m going to go back into business I’ve got a company that I’ll be launching soon more publicly but it’s called Longevity Partners I’ve got a business plan and I’m I’m taking some steps for formative steps right now again I’m still too young to retire I want to work differently certainly at this stage of my life and so but but that’s just all smart thinking you know work smarter work better. Apply everything you know to to these next phases of whatever it is. You’re doing you have a chance and opportunity and every choice you make to make a better choice than the one you had previous based upon your knowledge and experience.
Alejandro Cremades: And when do you think that we’re going to be hearing more about your exciting new venture.
Jon Sabes: You know, give me a couple months give me a couple months and it’d be love to come back and talk to you or somehow you know make it public more public for those that are following the story. Ah I’ll publish something out of will little website called johnsavis.com I haven’t published much you can but I probably will come back to publishing there. But my former company would give me control over my website. So yeah instagram you’ll see some John Dot say John J O N’s Dot save us Instagram and probably Linkedin so I’ll be posting stuff. Please follow me if you’re interested.
Alejandro Cremades: So so let’s take a little of um of a step back here and and let’s put you into a time machine. Let’s put you into a time machine and and let’s bring you back in time back in time perhaps to that moment where it was o 6 you were thinking about starting your first thing. And they coming out of law school and let’s say I give you the opportunity of having a chat with that younger John and you’re able to give that younger John one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why given what you know now.
Jon Sabes: Great question, very unfair. Ah look I would tell that I’d say to that younger John do everything that you did because you you built a hell of a life you built. Incredible businesses. You worked with wonderful people. You’ve improved numerous people lives of of individuals. Yeah there’s been challenges and things haven’t gone right along the way but but but do it don’t don’t don’t just just keep going so honestly I’m gonna I’m gonna kind of cheat the question. Um, in the sense that I don’t believe in redos there are parallel universes but but no redos in the in the one you’re in so I would say you know go for it. Do it.
Alejandro Cremades: I love it. So for the people that are listening John what is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.
Jon Sabes: Say hi through Instagram John Geo N Dot savis I love is is probably my best Linkedin I don’t check much I’m there. Um, yeah, that’ll be the best way.
Alejandro Cremades: Amazing. Well hey John thank you so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been an honor to have you with us today.
Jon Sabes: I Appreciate your interest and thank you.
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