Evan Richardson On Raising $65 Million To Build A Virtual Clinic Offering High-Quality, Science-Based Obesity Care

Entrepreneurship is a journey filled with successes, failures, and countless lessons. Evan Richardson, founder of Form Health, the national leader in science-based obesity care, offers an insightful look into building and scaling a business based on his experiences and hard-learned lessons from the ventures he’s led.

Form Health has raised funding from top-tier investors like Sound Ventures, M13, NextView Ventures, and SignalFire.

In this episode, you will learn:

• Frequently moving in childhood fostered Evan’s self-reliance and adaptability, which later became crucial for his entrepreneurial success. He emphasizes the importance of flexibility and adjusting to new environments and challenges.
• From his consulting days, Evan learned that merely keeping up with competitors isn’t enough. True long-term success comes from carving out a unique niche and offering something others don’t.
• Evan’s first startup, a robo-advising venture, failed because the team didn’t respond to market realities. This experience taught him valuable lessons about product-market fit, team-building, and the dangers of sticking to arbitrary goals.
• At Grand Rounds, Evan realized the importance of continuously expanding the value provided to customers. What started as a niche expert opinion service eventually broadened to offer a range of healthcare solutions, driving growth.
• Evan highlights that predicting market shifts is impossible, and often, success comes from being in the right place at the right time. Form Health’s success was partly due to being ready when public awareness around obesity care grew.
• Evan advises entrepreneurs to be open to pivoting from their original plans. Sticking too rigidly to an initial idea can prevent businesses from seizing new opportunities and evolving with the market.
• Evan’s ventures, particularly Form Health, are built around providing high-value care that addresses significant healthcare challenges. His vision is to create accessible, cost-effective cardiometabolic care for patients, driving meaningful, long-term change in the healthcare system.

 

SUBSCRIBE ON:

For a winning deck, see the commentary on a pitch deck from an Uber competitor that has raised over $400M (see it here). 

Remember to unlock for free the pitch deck template that founders worldwide are using to raise millions below.

About Evan Richardson:

Evan Richardson is the founder and CEO of Form Health, the national leader in science-based obesity care.

Evan founded Form Health in 2019 after a career working at the intersection of health tech and health tech investing. He saw an opportunity to leverage the latest healthcare technology and pharmacological innovations to deliver evidence-based care to meaningfully address the obesity epidemic.

Evan began his career working at Bain & Company and Berkshire Partners. He got his start in health tech in 2011 when he became an early employee at Castlight, a healthcare navigator. As Head of Enterprise Products, Evan led the work building Castlight’s suite of enterprise-focused products, including mobile, pharma, and insurer platforms.

In 2013, Evan was a member of the founding team at Grand Rounds, a clinical navigator that later acquired telehealth provider Doctor on Demand to become Included Health. During his time at Grand Rounds, Evan held a variety of leadership roles across product, data science, operations, finance, and corporate development.

Evan currently serves on the boards of Bicycle Health, a virtual treatment provider for opioid dependence, and Crossover Health, a hybrid primary health care provider redesigning care delivery and cost models.

Evan has a degree in computer science from Dartmouth University and an MBA from Harvard Business School.

Connect with Evan Richardson:

• LinkedIn
• RocketReach
• Crunchbase
• TheOrg

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: All righty. Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Deal Maker Show. So today we have ah an amazing founder joining us. you know We’re going to be talking about the building, the scaling, the financing, all of that good stuff. We’re going to be talking about not only success, but also lessons learned along the way with another attempt at entrepreneurship too.

Alejandro Cremades: And dan you know other stuff that we’re going to be talking about, why you know starting a company for the right reasons is the way to go, how to think about adding value, you know whether it is with finding your business model or with new lines of revenue for your company, and then also how to think about being persistent around finding perhaps product market fit. So again, quite an inspiring conversation ahead of us. And without further ado, let’s welcome our guest today, Evan Richardson. Welcome to the show.

Evan Richardson: bro Great to be here and talk to you.

Alejandro Cremades: So originally born in Kansas, but you moved quite a bit, you know, growing up. You also walked through memory lane. How was life for you and during the early years?

Evan Richardson: ah Yeah, you know it was great. I yeah i was born in Kansas City. I lived there for probably six years or so. my My father was in the beverage alcohol industry and worked behind the counter in a liquor store for the first four or five years of life. and Then he he moved from there into to more of the corporate world. and we started to move around we spent like i said six years so in can city we spent about a year in saint louis we spent four or five years in denver we spent four five years in los angeles and then i finished out high school in fort worth texas so quite the quite the variety of scenery.

Alejandro Cremades: and sounds like a lot of moving. So how was how was it like for you to and developing that sense for uncertainty so early on in your life? Because it’s new friends, new location, new everything.

Evan Richardson: yeah yeah i think um I think it’s a challenge for for for any kid kind of ah resetting their social structure and kind of resetting their their cultural values a lot. um I do think, though, there’s a ton of value to it. I think that you know one of the things that it teaches you is to ah you know find find your sort of mission, find your motivation in yourself, because with your with your friends’ groups changing all the time, with you know, the schools that you’re in or anything else like that change all the time, you definitely can’t find it outside. And I think, you know, it teaches you to, you know, to not depend too heavily on that perspective of others for for what’s right and wrong or for what you want to be doing, et cetera. So, you know, I think though it was a challenge and I think, you know, of course, probably not surprisingly, the biggest challenge was moving right in the middle of high school from Los Angeles, California in a school that was

Evan Richardson: you know, uh, uh, probably 70% non white to Fort Worth, Texas school that was 97% white and had very different cultural expectations. So that was a challenge. Um, you know, I think, uh, today I think I probably have an ability to feel at home in a lot of different situations with a lot of different people. And so I think there’s real value there.

Alejandro Cremades: so Out of all things, you got into computer science. you know That’s why you went to study at Dartmouth. so Why computer science?

Evan Richardson: That’s right.

Evan Richardson: yeah Great question. i I’d always been pretty interested in computing. I think you know I started um were going to the library and getting a book on Quick Basic when I was in, gosh, she must have been in sixth grade you know and and writing like everybody else, the yeah their first Hello World program and being pretty darn proud of it. and so i you know I had been interested in ah and in what you could do if you wrote code for a long time and had a strong interest in math. And you know for me, as I was going into school, along with you know everything else that you want to spend your time doing ah in in undergrad, I was pretty focused on either math or computing. And to me, you know computing just felt a lot more practical. I always thought about it as learning a trade. And I felt like, gosh, you know if you have this skill set, then you know youll you always have something that you can

Evan Richardson: ah fall back on. So to me, it was about practicality, but it was also just a lot of you know personal interest.

Alejandro Cremades: But when you do computer science, you either become an engineer or you perhaps you know launch your own startup. So why going into consulting with Bain?

Evan Richardson: This is a great question. you know i think um i had i spent ah I spent probably a little bit more time working in in undergrad than a lot of folks. I came into Dartmouth and I was fortunate to have about a year’s worth of credit. so Instead of doing fun things like going off and spending my time doing study abroad or things that I would have probably a lot better time doing, I ended up doing a bunch of internships. and I did them at computing shops.

Evan Richardson: but i kind of I kind of got bad luck when I was selecting those internships, I think. I ended up working in a few really old school, kind of old line ah computing ah shops. One of them, you know was I was writing C++ plus plus compilers for the DEC Alpha platform, which was a supercomputer platform that was popular in the 1980s.

Evan Richardson: um And what I saw was just you know a really, really um challenging, uninteresting world of slow-moving corporate interactions. And to me, you know I said, this isn’t where I want to be spending my time. I think if I had landed you know out in California, if I’d been you know in the early days like some of my classmates did doing an internship at Google when it was just a few hundred folks, I probably would have had a pretty different perspective on it. But you know luck plays a role in a lot of these things. And I said, the heck with this, I got to go find something else to do. I remember you know having a real kind of come to Jesus moment my my senior year and saying, I got to find something else besides computing because the real world of computing is just so different than what I enjoy. And so I you know i ah changed all of my interviewing plans and ended up going and working at Banneco, which was a great spot to be. and I think I was ah pretty focused on um on entrepreneurship at the time. And to me, it made a lot of sense to go and ah learn a lot of the basics of how companies worked. And so instead of starting something on my own early, when I i felt like I didn’t know anything, ah to me, yeah yeah it made a lot of sense to go and learn the basics of how companies worked.

Alejandro Cremades: So with with basically with with the consulting at Bain and then also with the private equity ah that you did at Berkshire Partners, what did you learn about patterns when it comes to success or failure in business?

Evan Richardson: Yeah. um you know I think i think there’s there’s a bunch of key lessons. you know I think probably the most the the most important lesson I learned on the consulting side ah is strategies about what you do different.

Evan Richardson: One of the things that to me was was a little bit mind blowing when we first sat down or when I first sat down and got to be part of some of the conversations ah at you and in the consulting side was, ah gosh, we talked a lot as consultants about bringing um you know kind of creative thinking or you know bringing new perspectives, but a lot of the brass tacks work that we did was about benchmarking to industry standards.

Evan Richardson: And what I saw was you we were really good at helping companies do what everybody else did well or bring them kind of to that you know top quartile performance and whatever we looked at. But that never really differentiated. him And so you know it was it was an insight that I got more through seeing what I didn’t think worked.

Evan Richardson: which was doing everything the same way as your competitors, and really drove home to me the need to differentiate your approach. If you’re going to do something, if it’s going to make a real difference in the success or failure of your company, it has to be around what you do different. And you need to think a lot more about those areas you’re choosing to be different from your competition and carve out a unique ah area than you do about all those other areas that aren’t going to make as much of a difference and where it may be fine to just be you know top quartile of of your competitive set.

Alejandro Cremades: So then why did you think, hey, maybe I you know put the brakes and I go back to study?

Evan Richardson: Yeah. um you know I think um for me, ah it felt like there was a real decision point. you know I was very fortunate to spend a couple of years in private equity, learned a ton about um about doing deals, learned a ton about um ah basic financial operations of companies all the way up through you know ah ah financial engineering of deals, financial a engineering of companies took to really drive value. But to me, there was a real hard choice, which was you know stick in that industry, stay in private equity. where you know Look, there’s been a a ah fantastic kind of money spinning machine that has been built by a lot of firms over the course of the last 30 years in the world leverage buyouts. It was very clear that you could stay there

Evan Richardson: You could do well by yourself and your family, and you could ah produce value for your investors, but there just wasn’t a real opportunity for creativity. right I really saw the saw the choice there as as you know sticking around and kind of turning the crank on a money machine that was absolutely going to produce money, but ah you know I was going to be doing same things the same way as I had been doing and as others had been doing for 20, 30 years before.

Evan Richardson: And to me, that just didn’t seem like the place that I wanted to spend my next 30 years. And so going back to school and and going back for an MBA was you know really an opportunity to kind of hit a little bit, maybe not reset, but really have that kind of break point to say, all right, let’s take some real consideration of what we want to do. Let’s find that next opportunity to be more creative and really to dive back into entrepreneurship.

Alejandro Cremades: So after um basically the experience doing your MBA with Harvard, ah what you do is you move to Palo Alto. And this is as a result of your now wife.

Evan Richardson: ye

Alejandro Cremades: you know see was She was a physician and she you know went there to Stanford and and you went with her. And as a result of that, you got that exposure to basically healthcare care and healthcare care services.

Alejandro Cremades: It sounds like That was a pivotal moment in your life right when you were exposed to to this segment.

Evan Richardson: Absolutely.

Alejandro Cremades: It’s interesting because instead of going into that path, for the first time when you became a founder, you don’t go into healthcare, care you go into financial services. That’s quite the 180 there.

Alejandro Cremades: What happened?

Evan Richardson: Yeah. that’s Well, you know um ah it’s a great question. so this is not ah the The startup that you’re talking about is not one that that i’m I’m not sure I’ve ever actually even talked about it in in a podcast or in a public setting before. But you know I was at Cast Light, which was an early innovator in sort of this this iteration of health tech innovation.

Evan Richardson: And I’ve been there for a couple of years, and as I mentioned, you know I have been very focused on starting a company. And I’d set as a personal goal for myself that within you know two years of of graduating from from grad school, I was going to go out and start something. And you know I had plenty of reasons why that made a bunch of sense.

Evan Richardson: and so Just as I was creeping up on that two-year mark, I was working very hard to find the next thing that that I wanted to go spend time on. And and I jumped. And I think you know the reason that I left had a lot more to do with that kind of goal that I’d set for myself. right It was a very arbitrary timeline. right And ah you know ultimately I worked on something that made sense from my previous life, right? Because I’d come from the finance world. I’d come from consulting. I’d come from sort of that analytical world. And I’d only spent about 18 months in health tech at the time. And so I did. I i worked on starting a company in the what is now sort of thought of as the robo advising space, you know, a competitor to Wealthfront or companies like that.

Evan Richardson: And um you know I think a lot of the pieces that I knew I had to bring into place, ah whether that was founding team, whether that was you know product market fit, whether that was the technology stack that we leveraged, et cetera, a lot of the pieces that I pulled into place over the six months that that I was actively working on that company A lot of it was done more out of a sense of, hey, this is the plan and this is what makes sense without listening to what the data was that I was seeing in market, without really listening to um you know what what I was seeing from my founding team, without really listening to where the market had started to evolve to. um A lot of it was you know sort of ah very focused on the initial goals that I had laid out, the initial plan.

Evan Richardson: and not being very responsive, and it was a disaster. right you know I think I ultimately sunk $30,000 or $40,000 of cash out of my own pocket working to bootstrap. you know We hired a team overseas. We didn’t manage them right, but we were trying to manage the some timelines that um that, again, we had sort of arbitrarily set down. I chose a founding partner who you know yeah with a little bit of personal insight, I probably could have figured out was not going to be a great match. you know He had a ah bunch of challenges. And ultimately, you know we got to sort of the end of that five or six month period with really nothing but like a smoldering hole in the ground. right we We worked hard. And and yet, you know because I think we just weren’t responsive to the data we were seeing, you know we ultimately got to a spot where it was very clear that there was no go forward path.

Alejandro Cremades: So how was that moment where you decide that there’s no go forward with Bath? I mean, that pulling the plug, I’m sure it was very painful.

Evan Richardson: if you know I think it it was. i think um i I was fortunate because I think one thing that that you know that I did do right was um you know I had been spending time on multiple projects. And so you know my co-founder on this financial advisory ah company that I was working on, you know um disappeared ah for a week or a week and a half, kind of resurfaced and told me they’d had a psychotic break. you know At about the same time, our developers were coming back and ah you know showing us the work that they had done, but none of it worked and there wasn’t anything there. um But I had been spending a bunch of time with another founder who I respected tremendously, who was working on a healthcare tech startup.

Evan Richardson: And you know he and I had been talking about how he could go to market. He and I had been talking a bunch about the pieces of um of infrastructure that he was going to need to put into place. And um he and a another healthcare care tech founder, who is the chair of interventional radiology at Stanford, had been working on a company that was was becoming grand rounds at the time. And, you know, I fit really well into that group, right, as the sort of product piece of their Troika, where we had one healthcare person, we had one, you know, sort of startup business focused person, we had one person who could drive product. um And, you know, I think it was very fortunate that those pieces came together at the same time that, you know, the other ah work that I had done was was really starting to slow down.

Alejandro Cremades: So let’s talk about joining that company. you know um So ultimately, the um the company that you ended up joining was Included Health. you know That’s the name that it became.

Alejandro Cremades: And you were part of the founding team there.

Evan Richardson: yeah

Alejandro Cremades: And there, you know there was it was quite…

Evan Richardson: That’s right.

Alejandro Cremades: um quite a great opportunity for you to to to to look into how to keep figuring things out, like figuring areas of value ultimately.

Evan Richardson: Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: So as a founder, I guess as part of being in the venture world, what what what kind of exposure did I give you that really helped you out to become the founder that you are today with FormHealth?

Evan Richardson: yeah

Evan Richardson: Well, I think you know the biggest, but well, lot but probably a lot of learnings from from grand rounds. And I think one of the most important ones though, was a real focus on value and a focus on continuing to expand the value that we were providing to our customers. and ah you know ah the the CEO, their own trip has a tremendous nose for continuing to expand share wallet, expand value to to customers, et cetera. And I think you know one of the things that we were incredibly successful at doing was year after year, expanding the value we were delivering to our customers. We started as an expert opinion company. And

Evan Richardson: That meant that we worked with employers, we allowed their employees to go and get a second opinion for their healthcare. It’s a pretty niche area. When we started that ah part of the business, you know we did our quick ah TAM calculation. We thought it was a multi-billion dollar market, and a couple of years in, we did that TAM calculation for the board, and we said, gosh, maybe it’s like a couple hundred million dollars, and maybe we’re going to have to figure out sort of another you know way to go. here and And so we had already started to have a bunch of insight around quality of care, around finding high quality physicians. And we started to expand that into the navigation business. And so we built this expert opinion company into a navigation business. um And ah um from there, continued to expand sort of all the different things that we did for those employer companies. And then you know they’ve they’ve carried that forward very ah very effectively. right they They purchased doctor on demand and integrated all of those services and today are the largest provider of NAB and tele-primary services out there from a company that started as a pretty niche provider of expert opinions. And I think you know that that path is essential for anybody that’s looking to really develop a high impact, high importance, high value company over time, because almost no matter what you start with,

Evan Richardson: it’s gonna be too small for your vision. And you’ve gotta be focused on how you can continue to expand the value you provide to whoever your your customers are and expand the markets that you address over time, and really in order to have a company that matches at least most entrepreneurs vision.

Alejandro Cremades: So Form Health you know was the next chapter and the next company that that you um take an attempt at at ah as a founder.

Evan Richardson: That’s right.

Alejandro Cremades: So Form Health, what what ended up becoming Form of Health? What is the business model there? How do you guys make money?

Evan Richardson: yeah Yeah, so form is the ah the the largest provider of high quality obesity care in the country today. That means that we work with patients who who want to um help get treatment for their obesity, for their weight. um And we work with them in a holistic model. We treat their comorbidities that cause weight gain. We work to make sure they’re on appropriate medication that doesn’t cause weight gain. We deploy a dietetic and

Evan Richardson: activity ah um pathways for those patients to make sure that they’re actively losing weight. And then we wrap all of that with medication. So about 90% of our patients are on medication. Some of those are on, ah you know, these medications that you’ve probably heard about, like GLP ones.

Evan Richardson: We go the that bound other medications many of them are on lower cost more broadly available medications and we work with those patients to drive great results we do that largely through working with employers and other large partners.

Evan Richardson: And so when we work with employers, we work to make sure that their employees get the best results, which is really important from a value perspective for the employers. Because of course, employers are mostly footing the bill for all of the medication and all the treatment. And so they want to make sure that when a patient does get treatment, they’re getting the best possible outcomes. And that’s what we do. High quality care, high value care, and great outcomes for patients.

Alejandro Cremades: So then so then in that in that regard also, how have you guys gone about the financing cycles here? you know How much capital have you guys raised today and what has been the journey of raising the money?

Evan Richardson: Yeah, we’ve raised about $65 million. dollars um you know I think the the first dollars that we brought in were in 2019. I think I was fortunate to have spent a bunch of time ah around the early stage venture capital and and sort of a venture fundraising world. And so had a bunch of folks that I was able to to talk to and and pretty quickly put a seed round together. you know At the time, ah it was pretty pretty typical. We raised about $4 million dollars in that seed round, and we’re off to the races. um yeah We did an A ah that was in about 2021, and boy, was that a different fundraising environment than some of the other rounds that we that we did.

Evan Richardson: ah since. We also, you know I think, were able to grow through some of what has been a fairly challenging market from a fundraising perspective for health tech companies, especially since ah you know right around Jan Feb of 22, when I think a lot of the world started to shift for health tech companies. And and so then we we have ah continued to grow the company pretty tremendously, and we completed a B earlier this year, which we were excited about.

Alejandro Cremades: So how is it like to go from like early stage to growth stage, you know which is really you know completing a B?

Evan Richardson: Yeah, you know I think um for us, the thing that has been most interesting to see is really just this explosion of patient perspective or patient awareness, I should say, of the sector. you know we started out When we started the company, um really the the biggest challenge that we had was helping patients to understand that obesity care existed, that So that some of the medications for treating obesity, that the sector that we work in, obesity medicine, was you know was real and legitimate care. That world changed pretty dramatically during COVID, right? you know I think you know a TikTok helped to alert the world that things like Ozimpic or other GLP ones were out there and could have a major impact for patients. And and and today, you know we often spend a lot of our time talking to patients about other

Evan Richardson: ah treatments that may or may not be GLP-1s, that may be more effective for them, that may be appropriate given their healthcare coverage, their health insurance coverage, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think um you know that world has really changed and that’s really helped that patient awareness has tremendously helped to accelerate the business.

Evan Richardson: That’s a hard one to have foreseen. and i think you know As I look back over my ah ah last 25 years ah in in business, I think it’s hard to ignore the fact that you know you’ve always got to put in the time, you’ve always got to put in the hours, you’ve always got to make that effort.

Evan Richardson: and you can never really map out exactly what’s going to happen. It was impossible for us to know that you know mid 21, the world would suddenly get wise to the existence of GLP ones and that while GLP ones had been in market for 10 plus years, the sector was about to absolutely explode. And yet because we were there, because we were hard, we were ready for that uplift when it happened. But I think that you know every but Every entrepreneur, they’d be lying to you if they didn’t say that those kind of unexpected moments didn’t play a really material role in the growth of their companies or their own personal trajectory. And so I think that you know that’s that’s been one of the the the more interesting takeaways over time.

Alejandro Cremades: So when you receive money, you know, they’re betting on a vision just like employees or customers would do. So I guess the question there is, if you were to go to sleep tonight, Evan, and you wake up in a world where the vision of form health is fully realized, what does that world look like?

Evan Richardson: yeah um Well, I guess I would say that world where vision where the vision for form is fully realized is is really one where every patient has access to high quality cardiometabolic care. And that that that may sound like a mouthful, but if you take a step back and you look at the the challenge for the world’s healthcare care system outside of developing economies where it’s you know really basic healthcare that is the biggest challenge, the the biggest challenge in the developed world is cardiometabolic.

Evan Richardson: BMI, weight, cardiac, diabetes, et cetera. All of these are tied together. And what we do at Form is we treat the central driver weight for all of those diseases. And so I think the ah the the the fully realized vision for Form is driving access, driving fantastic care for patients, and really in doing that, driving down the total cost of care in the World Health Care System.

Alejandro Cremades: So then let’s talk about the, we’re talking about the future. I want to talk about the past, but with a lens of reflection. Imagine if I was to put you into a time machine and I bring you back in time. Maybe that point where you were thinking about building something of your own and giving the notice at Cast Light. And let’s say you’re able to have a chat with your younger self and you’re able to give that younger self one piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why, given what you know now?

Evan Richardson: Yeah. um I think you know probably the the the the biggest thing um would be yeah you Horatio Alger probably got more right than he got wrong. So this is the guy who wrote a long time ago. And the the core the core thesis for a lot of his stories were, you have to work hard, you have to prepare yourself, you have to be ready, but you can never know exactly what it is that’s going to lift you to that next step. It’s gonna take you to that next step. um you know when i was When I was leaving Cast Light to work on what was ultimately a really ill-fated company,

Evan Richardson: I was introduced to Owen by another friend of mine who worked there. And she suggested I talk to him because boy, he’d done a lot in consumer driven subscription businesses, which is what I thought I was building. And so if I went back and I said to myself, hey, you know what, like this business you’re about to try and start is going to be a flaming hole in the ground in six months. You’re about to have a kid. You’re going to spend a bunch of money you don’t have on building that flaming hole. Just don’t do it. Well, I never would have been introduced to Owen. I never would have gone down this next

Evan Richardson: path. And so I think you know it’s not about always making the right decision. I think it is about ah being ready, working hard so that you can be ready when that opportunity presents itself, because you’re never going to go to plan. If you stick too hard to that plan that you set for yourself, you’re you’re not going to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities that come along. You have to be responsive. You have to see what’s happening at the time, and you have to be ready to make a change when it happens.

Alejandro Cremades: I love it, I love it there. So um for the people that are listening that would love to reach out and say hi, what is the best way for for doing so?

Evan Richardson: Folks can get me at evan at formhealth.co.

Alejandro Cremades: Amazing. Well, hey, well, Evan, thank you so much for being on The Dealmaker Show today. It has been an absolute honor to have you with us.

Evan Richardson: Thank you, Otto. Have those been great.

*****

If you like the show, make sure that you hit that subscribe button. If you can leave a review as well, that would be fantastic. And if you got any value either from this episode or from the show itself, share it with a friend. Perhaps they will also appreciate it. Also, remember, if you need any help, whether it is with your fundraising efforts or with selling your business, you can reach me at al*******@pa**************.com“>al*******@pa**************.com

 

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | TuneIn | RSS | More