Daniel Hegarty is the cofounder and CEO of Habito which is a digital mortgage brokerage services company that offers a personal and modernized approach to the home buying experience. The company has raised $80 million Atomico, Ribbit Capital, Mosaic Ventures, SBI Group, Loric Ventures, and Mojo Capital to name a few.
In this episode you will learn:
- Managing through COVID lockdowns
- The challenges facing mortgage startups who want to deliver better experiences
- Daniel’s top two pieces of advice for other entrepreneurs
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About Daniel Hegarty:
Daniel Hegarty founded Habito, the free online mortgage broker in 2015. Daniel Hegarty the opportunity to transform the mortgage market after a frustrating and protracted experience getting his own mortgage and decided to use technology to create a better way.
Daniel Hegarty has extensive fintech experience that took an unusual route, having spent the early part of his career as a professional musician. Daniel Hegarty was a songwriter, session musician, composed for TV and film and toured internationally for many years. In 2007, Daniel Hegarty became increasingly interested in the tech and startup scene and joined a fledgling fintech company, Wonga as Head of Product. Daniel Hegarty went on to hold several other positions as the business grew and became global including Head of Decision Science, Head of Strategy & New Ventures and Managing Director of Business Lending & Retail.
Connect with Daniel Hegarty:
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FULL TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW:
Alejandro: Alrighty. Hello everyone, and welcome to the DealMakers show. Today we have a founder joining us from London, and definitely a very interesting story here that he has to share. We’re going to be talking quite a bit on fintech and building, scaling, you name. So without further ado, Daniel Hegarty, welcome to the show.
Daniel Hegarty: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Alejandro: So born and raised in London. How was life growing up?
Daniel Hegarty: How was life growing up? If you’ve spent any time in London, it’s a lot of rain, a lot of talking about football, a lot of eating bad English food, but yeah, good. I still live here, so it couldn’t have been so bad.
Alejandro: And I’m sure a lot of fish and chips, but anyhow, I know that you were partially raised by your grandparents. So, tell us about this.
Daniel Hegarty: Yeah. That’s right. Over the years, my parents and grandparents kind of tag-teamed looking after my brother and me, which in the context of an entrepreneurial journey, I think it was quite important. One was Czechoslovakian. My grandmother was from Vienna. I think that sense of otherness and not being pulled in or invested in the sort of British status quo definitely affected my thinking about my career and how I went about building businesses.
Alejandro: And they were refugees, so the migrant mindset was pretty much there from the early beginnings. So, how would you say that has influenced who you are today?
Daniel Hegarty: They were both Jewish and, obviously, chased out in the Occupation in WWII. I think it was a few things. I think one was like a general sense that whatever you were going to make in the world, you were going to need to make yourself, as well as a sense that anything you had made could be taken away from you at any moment. But, also, yeah. I guess that natural hustle, if you like, of how you’re going to figure out how you’re going to fit in in a foreign country and a foreign context without understanding all of the implicit rules. I think, particularly for me, in my current business – we’re in the mortgage business. I didn’t know anything about mortgages before I started this business. I think that kind of mentality gives you the courage to try those things.
Alejandro: Then, at 16, something pretty big-time happened.
Daniel Hegarty: Yeah. I was in this quite bad punk band all the way through school. We got a record deal, so obviously, we were faced with the choice between doing my A-levels in English and math and going out on the road with my band; it was a pretty easy decision. Yeah, that was the beginning of nine or ten years for me as a professional musician both here in the UK and here in the U.S.
Alejandro: Were you guys going after the record deal like knocking on doors, or did this just happen like out of the blue?
Daniel Hegarty: We got discovered by an agent, a manager who then shopped us around for our first deal. We had this modest radio hit in the UK. That set us up for a good run. That band imploded, as all teenage bands do. Then, I transitioned into doing a lot of session musician work, being in some other bands, doing some work for film and television, and a number of other things.
Alejandro: And this was in Los Angeles. How was life there? You dedicated nine or ten years to this, so what were some of those key lessons that you got from that?
Daniel Hegarty: Yes. I ended up in Los Angeles in my early 20s with the next big band that I invested a couple of years in, which was like an informative experience for me. It’s my first time out of the UK for a significant period. It was two guys and me who had gone out there together, literally just with our instruments. Actually, the drummer couldn’t even bring a drum kit. I remember on our second day sitting in a café and being like, “We need instruments, somewhere to live, a car, a lead singer because we didn’t have one. Then, we need to find a manager and a record deal, and it began this couple of year journey of us trying to figure that out, which, as you can imagine, sounds a little bit like what a startup is, but instead of record companies, you’ve got VCs, and you don’t stop growing the employee count at three, four, or five people. You just keep on going.
Alejandro: Got it. What happened after the nine years that got you thinking, “Maybe it’s time to pack the bags and go to London”?
Daniel Hegarty: It was a few things, really. To be frank, I wasn’t so tremendously talented that there was no challenge in it. Most of the music that I wanted to make, it appeared people didn’t really want to listen to. I guess I was faced with – I remember being at the airport, going off on tour and seeing some of the other guys I was playing with who were maybe ten years older than me saying goodbye to their kids for eight, nine, or ten months as they went off on tour. I was conscious of a career like a jobbing session musician was going to be tough, and it was never going to stop. It was always going to be buses and airplanes and being away. In truth, I came back to the UK just for some time out to have a think about options, and I stumbled into my first job in fintech. I didn’t really expect that I would stay. I anticipated after a few months that I would be back making music. It turned out that I was a massive closet geek. As soon as I was let loose in fintech, I never looked back.
Alejandro: Tell us about this because it’s interesting. You dropped off from school at 16, so it’s not like you had the curriculum of Oxford and all these crazy universities and titles and things that would dress up the CV, so how do you go to convince someone because this is a massive shift, as well for you, into a completely new industry. First, how do you stumble across fintech, and then how do you convince the right people at the right time to give you a shot?
Daniel Hegarty: It’s kind of a funny story. It was actually a very good friend of mine, a corporate lawyer called Tina Baker, who does a lot of angel. She’s now actually retired but did a lot of the angel and Series A rounds in London over the last 10 to 15 years. She also had a second life. Before that, she was a pop star in New York in the ‘80s and then was an opera singer and all sorts of things. So, I actually knew her from music, nothing to do with business. I came back to London, and I was like, “Listen. I’ve got no qualifications. I really need a break, and I want to try something different. How do I get a grown-up job?” She was like, “Oh, that’s funny. I just met this guy who I think might be crazy enough to hire you. He just raised some funding.” She introduced me to the founder of the first company I worked at, a company called Wonga. He and I just hit it off. After 15 minutes, he was like, “I think you’re a smart guy. I think you can add some value.” I started two days later, and it ended up being a six-year journey for me.
Alejandro: That’s amazing. And here you were running all types of stuff for them, from credit risk and analytics to new products to you name it. So how was that steep learning curve for you? All of a sudden, here you are. Someone gives you a shot, and you have to learn all of this stuff from the ground up.
Daniel Hegarty: Yeah. Honestly, it was incredibly exciting for me at the time. I remember just being like – I laugh now, but I remember putting the first 100 pounds into a Google AdWords account and being given the Web Analytics login and being amazed at all the day’s records I could find. Then, my boss at the time said that I could spend as much money on Amazon on books as I wanted. So I was sitting there reading books on subjects like linear regression and doing the machine learning courses at Stanford in the evenings. Yeah, it was crazy. It was like this whole part of my brain that I had never used before, and I was suddenly surrounded by very, very brilliant people – quite intellectually a combative environment, and I really thrive on it. I actually loved it.
Alejandro: So, in this case, I know that for you, there was quite an event you had to live through with Wonga was having the Church not very happy with you guys. So what was that?
Daniel Hegarty: Yeah. Wonga is an interesting story. I was the fourth or fifth or sixth employee, and then over the next few years, it went from nothing to being over 1,000 people in nine countries, lending to consumers, lending to businesses, doing all kinds of things. I would definitely say it was in the high-cost short-term credit space. We were spending – I don’t remember now, but 30 or 40 million pounds a year on marketing, so it was a very famous brand and attracted a lot of attention from politicians, from the media more generally. At one point, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury decided that he didn’t think it was a great thing. He came out in the press and said that the Church was going to compete directly with Wonga to try and serve the same customer segment, which was, honestly, sort of funny in retrospect. But, at the time, it kind of made us feel pretty sick. We’d all invested thousands of hours of our life into building this product that we thought could have a positive impact on the world, and having the Church say that it couldn’t was pretty disturbing. And you couldn’t make it up. The next day, it emerged that the Church was actually an investor in Wonga through a couple of our VCs.
Daniel Hegarty: The newspaper and the Arch Bishop had to walk it back. It was a crazy time.
Alejandro: What did you learn about PR crisis management?
Daniel Hegarty: I think we learned that ultimately you have to stick to your guns and be clear about what you’re doing in the world. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to make this all about Wonga. Wonga’s not a simple story, and not everything that Wonga did was perfect. I think if you’re in usury and money lending, more generally, it is always going to have the complexity of, “What do we do about the people that can’t repay, and how do we treat them in an empathetic and fair way? I think this is the reality: if you’re building a big brand in a space – and we see it in every growth fintech brand. At some point, the media is going to be upset. In the UK, right now, you see it with Monzo, an incredible business. Tom is an incredible founder – every second story in the newspaper is something negative about how they’re dealing with AML or if their new product doesn’t work or if the founding story is problematic. It’s just the nature of things. I think you’ve just got to be tough and tough it out.
Alejandro: Daniel, in this case, at one point, you decide it’s time to do your own thing, to build your own baby, so tell us about how the idea of Habito came to mind and how you brought it to life?
Daniel Hegarty: You can probably hear from the way I described it. I loved the first couple of years of Wonga so much. When it was a smaller group, maybe a little bit more familiar to me because it was a bit more like being in a band. So, yeah, I very much wanted to repeat that experience, but there were a couple of things in my mind. One was that I wanted to have control over the culture and to make sure I was building a place I would be excited to work at. Also, I wanted to build a product that was completely aligned with that customer’s outcomes, so there wasn’t any contention and difficulty in figuring out what was the right thing to do in any given situation? I was fortunate, I guess, as founders sometimes are in that I had a really terrible experience. I went to buy my first house, and I had this kind of comic experience in the UK – and I should say that in the UK, mortgage brokers are very prevalent. About 80% of mortgages are arranged by mortgage brokers. You don’t tend to get [13:41] to your bank. My mortgage broker made a horrible mess of me buying my first house. It’s kind of funny. He made the application to the bank, and on the application, he included me, my partner, and my partner. So ten days later, the bank rejected the application on the grounds that I was a polygamist or a bigamist or something. Then he realizes his error. I’m like, “Please, can you fix this. We’re going to lose this house.” He then takes me off the application and just includes my partner and my partner again. Another ten days passed. The application is declined again. In the end, the sellers were going to pull out. It looked like the whole thing was going to fall apart. In the end, we figured it out. For me, it was this incredible insight that the home mortgage industry was essentially like people passing buckets of water to each other with zero technology, zero transparency about process. I guess, even more than that for me, considering that I had already been in financial services for quite a few years at that point. I was struck by how disempowered and confused I was in the process and how little innate knowledge that the typical house purchaser has of all that financing entails. I felt like I had stumbled over this broken thing in the world, so I set about the process of thinking about how to fix it and how to raise funds, and that was the beginning of Habito.
Alejandro: For the people that are listening to really get it, what ended up being the business model of Habito? How do you guys make money?
Daniel Hegarty: There are two things that we do primarily. First, we are a digital mortgage broker, so we compete with those guys who made a mess of me buying my house. Essentially, customers come to us on the internet. We provide them with mortgage advice. We find the right mortgage for them, and then we go ahead and make the application on their behalf and process it with the lender. So we’re free to the customer, but we’re paid a portion of the mortgage by the lender. On top of that, we do a couple of other things. One, last year, we became a mortgage lender ourselves, so we have some of our own full stack products where, obviously, we make money in the usual way by charging interest and fees. Also, we have a premium homebuying product called Habito Plus, where we not only arrange the whole financing, but we deal with the legal work; we deal with the appraisal of the house; we orchestrate the whole transaction. For that, we also charge a fee.
Alejandro: Very cool. One of the key areas of building a meaningful business is understanding how you get to your customers and an acquisition channel. I know that, for you guys, it was a little bit bumpy, especially when it came to understanding that television is probably not the way to go.
Daniel Hegarty: That’s interesting that you say that. Like in most fintechs, maybe fintech companies, in general, we were doing what everyone was doing. We were spending money on Google; we were spending money on Facebook; we liked doing tests with other channels. It was working okay. We were getting enough volume to learn and build. But our customer acquisition goes down. Our cap was just too high. We realized quite early on that if we were going to build a very large business in this space, we were going to have to build a brand, and you can’t really build a brand on Google. So, with that insight in hand, we were like, “Right. Let’s start to make our first TV advert and put our money where our mouth is and go above the line. Looking back, I don’t quite know what we were thinking, but we made an advert trying to explain to people what an algorithm was and how our algorithm would help them find the best mortgage. We spent several hundred pounds all in on this TV campaign – went live. Nothing! We’re watching the web analytics, and not even a bump on our traffic.
Daniel Hegarty: Let alone, like any mortgage is getting sold. So we’re like head-in-our-hands wondering what we had done. We tried re-editing it. We’d do a different media by different channels and still like absolutely nothing. So we go back to the drawing board a little bit despairing. Actually, just at that time, thankfully, we were hiring our first CMO. I had this conversation with her at the time, which was, “Listen. I believe to build a brand in this space, we’re going to have to be on television to build trust and to build notoriety. But what we’re doing isn’t working.” I think the realization we had together was if you want to be noticed on television, particularly in this space, which is conservative and boring, you’re going to need to be brave, like really brave. So my brief to our CMO was, “We’re willing to go away and make a new advert, a new media strategy, and I want you to make me really uncomfortable. I want to feel like deeply scared.” [Laughter] Because otherwise, if I’m not scared, no one’s going to remember it. She did an amazing job. I was really terrified. We made a new set of adverts. The pitch is hell or Habito. So, hell is the old way of doing it, all of those feelings of disempowerment, and confusion, and getting ripped off. Obviously, on the other side is us, Habito, the bright future. The way we dramatized that was essentially like animated cartoons of people being attacked by mortgages, like disemboweled, drowned in vomit, like sweating so much they drown in their own sweat and mortgage puranas come and eat them – I know; it sounds completely crazy. That was the pitch, and that was what we did. We put the first advert out nearly two years ago now, and it was completely transformative for us. So we went from like 0% brand recognition to 10% brand recognition nationally with the most recognized mortgage brand in the country. Our customer acquisition cost came down by like 350%.
Daniel Hegarty: It has become the primary growth engine for us as a business has been this creative platform. So a huge, huge learning experience for us. I think most importantly, I would say is that I was really worried that people would think we were showing off and trying to win marketing awards like what does this have to do with making the best decision about buying a home? I think the reason it worked was because it had a basis in empathy. I think it actually wasn’t just us saying how cool we were. It was like us saying, “We understand that this is an unpleasant process, and you feel like you’re being ripped off or things aren’t being explained properly. Because of the creative or the drama that was based in that, I think that’s why our customers responded to it.
Alejandro: Very cool. A business like this is quite different to venture, so why is it different, and what was that process for you like?
Daniel Hegarty: So different, too. What did you say?
Alejandro: For example, in this case, you had to raise all this money for the lending. So tell us about what was that process like?
Daniel Hegarty: Sure. We’ve had to raise a lot of venture capital, as you can imagine, like most high-growth fintech’s, but because we wanted to move into the lending space, as well, we also had to raise a huge amount of debt capital, so we’d have enough dry powder to lend. As you know well, and I’m sure your listeners know well, venture capital is effectively like an iterative process. You define your hypothesis; you get to the early stages of product/market fit, show the right growth numbers, show great unit economics, and you prove your point iteratively over years and raise multiple rounds. When you’re trying to raise, for us, what was 500 million pounds worth of mortgage debt, you don’t get to do any of that. You can’t build a minimum viable product and test it in the world. You have to be 100% ready to take complete ownership and judiciary responsibility for this huge pile of money. So you have to build your whole lending platform in advance. You have to build all of your risk and governance and compliance teams that are going to sit around that and control it in advance. Then, and only then, a couple of years into the process, you get to go out into the market and try to convince institutional investors that they want to bet big on your platforms. That was something we did last summer, and bear in mind that this was also in the middle of Brexit, which has been a pretty challenging sort of episode of Britain engaging in self-harm publicly.
Daniel Hegarty: But we got there in the end after about nine months of grueling interrogation of what we’d built. We were incredibly proud to have done it, but also, the level of diligence makes you grow up as a business and makes you realize what it means to be a serious global financial institution. So even though it was painful and wasn’t fun at the time, actually, it was an incredibly positive experience for us as a business.
Alejandro: That’s amazing because you’ve raised on the lending site 700 million dollars?
Daniel Hegarty: It’s about that. Yeah. It’s 500 million pounds, whatever the exchange rate is.
Alejandro: Got it. Then on the equity side from investors, how much have you raised?
Daniel Hegarty: It’s about 80 million dollars.
Alejandro: Very nice. Very nice. Obviously, you were able to see the incredible growth of Wonga, and Wonga had also raised quite a bit of money, too, over 100 million. The question here is, based on your experience with Wonga when you were at it here, and you knew you needed to raise money, what were some of the aspects that you were looking for from investors because, obviously, money is not everything. It’s who is giving you the money and how you can leverage their networks.
Daniel Hegarty: For sure. Yeah. Because Wonga had a tumultuous ending, I also saw some of the downsides of when investor relationships go bad. Yeah, I was incredibly focused, maybe too focused on finding investors who I believed were super high in integrity and were good people who I could trust and would be there in the down scenario. We were incredibly fortunate and raised money from some of the best investors in the world. I was also lucky that for the majority of them, I also had a personal relationship with them that had gone back a few years. They had met my kids. I had met their kids. Yeah, that made a big difference for me, particularly because I’m a solo founder, so I don’t necessarily have that kind of natural person to talk to within the business. I think I was probably more reliant on the trusted relationships with some of our board members early on in Havito’s history.
Alejandro: Absolutely. Now, COVID has been as well, quite bumpy for everyone. How has it been for you, the whole COVID experience, and for Habito?
Daniel Hegarty: To be honest, it was very tough. We were right in the middle of raising our Series C, and effectively in the lockdown, the housing market in the UK came to a complete stop. Realtors couldn’t show people around houses, surveyors or appraisers couldn’t go around and value houses. Our revenues, which some of it is refined, so that carried on, but dropped by 70% to 80% at the worst point. Obviously, when it happened, none of us had any idea how long that was going to go on for, whether it was going to be three months, six months, or two years. I guess many others and I had our nuclear apocalypse financial projections where we were trying to work out how long we were going to survive at very low revenues. If you have a Series C like [25:08], with a couple of investors getting very nervous. We were lucky on the number front. Firstly, we responded really fast and looked at our cost space, made sure that we were being really realistic about what the rest of the year could hold and how we could protect ourselves. Also, as I said, you find out from your existing investors who are going to be there for you in a down moment. We had a down moment. We were incredibly fortunate that all of our investors showed up both with time and with their checkbooks to help us out. Then, on the other side, the market rebounded much quicker than we’d imagined. Actually, the market was re-shutdown for just under three months, and it came back with a real boom. So we were able to close the Series C. We were back with record-breaking months within just three or four months from that, that real bottom of the curve. And it looks like, God willing, no second waves and further lockdowns. Yeah, the business is going from strength to strength, so the touch with that continues.
Alejandro: That’s amazing, and I’m sure that for you, that was pretty nerve-wracking, but I’m sure that you learned quite a bit, too, as a founder. One of the things that I wanted to ask you here is, when you’re dealing with a moment like that, such an impact, it’s hard not to start thinking the what-ifs and to have those voices and going into this toxic-type of rabbit hole, how was that for you? How did you deal with that?
Daniel Hegarty: I wish I could say I was impervious to it, but no. I was definitely having the 3:00 am wakeups where I was in all hands explaining to the business that we had run out of money, all the usual horrific nightmare stuff. You know, the one thing that I did, in retrospect, always seems a bit crazy, but it actually showed some wisdom was, I had this moment of realization that – it sounds like a strange thing to say, but it’s a bit like when you break up from your long-term partner, or you lose someone you love, where the floor falls away beneath you, and suddenly every different version of the future seems possible.
Daniel Hegarty: I kind of felt like COVID was that for us. Actually, what we did a month after lockdown was, we did as a senior leadership team; we all got together and did a really deep strategy exercise. We examined every kind of piece of received wisdom and precept of our strategy, and really stress-tested it and made sure we still believed it because the world had changed. I was super-conscious that if our strategy didn’t change, then perhaps I suggested that we weren’t being mentally agile enough. That process, we did over two or three weeks and made some – not totally earthshattering changes but killed off a couple of product lines that had been stuttering for a while, doubled down on some bets that we really believed on for the future. I think it was incredibly valuable for us, not just in terms of taking the opportunity to rethink the future, but also in finding each other in that process. Because, obviously, we had all been physically dispersed into our houses. But it allowed us to have some really deep and challenging conversations about the true business. In the months that followed, I think it gave us a great platform for growing out of the crisis that we had experienced.
Alejandro: Talking about the future, Daniel, imagine you go to sleep tonight, and you wake up five years later, so a tremendous snooze. You wake up in a world where the vision of Habito is fully realized. What does that world look like?
Daniel Hegarty: It’s a lovely thought, particularly because I’ve got two kids under three. [Laughter] So, missing a few years of those months would be amazing. No, for us, the vision is the same. We want it to be incredibly easy for people to buy houses. We think homeownership is a huge driver of happiness in the world and of value in the economy. In the moment, when it is still, even with our best efforts, largely brought about by legacy institutions and legacy technology with a bunch of processes and laws, as well, actually that really work against the consumer. So, I think, I would imagine a future would be that we’re at the center of many, many more transactions – let’s say the majority of transactions. The decision to purchase a house is as simple in the UK as finding a house you want and asking us to arrange the purchase with just a few clicks. And by creating that central hub of demand on one side and supply for the mortgage market on the other side, we’re reducing costs for everybody, and therefore, driving our mortgage rates and the cost of homeownership.
Alejandro: Very cool. Very cool. For the folks that are listening to get an idea on the size of Habito, is there anything that you can share on the number of employees or anything else?
Daniel Hegarty: Sure, yes. We are about 150 people now. I think we’re originating something like 2% of all the mortgages in the UK, so a reasonable scale, like multiple billions, annualized. Yeah. There are some headlines.
Alejandro: That’s amazing. Good stuff. Good stuff, Daniel. Now, as you’re looking back and it’s quite a journey that you’ve been through from playing in a band, touring on buses, and all over the world from that to joining fintech, experiencing massive scale, and now even doing it, yet again, now, for you, for your own baby with Habito – as you’re looking back and if you had a chance to speak to your younger self, with that younger Daniel, that perhaps you could give that younger self one piece of business advice before launching a business, a company, what would that be and why knowing what you know now?
Daniel Hegarty: That’s a really good question. It’s deep. I think there are two things. I’m going to cheat. I’m going to do two things. First is like the thing that is going to sustain you. Being in a band and founding a business is tough. Like, anything in life worth doing is incredibly tough and is going to require infinite amounts of energy and grit and determination. Make sure you really, deeply give a **** about it. Don’t end up in an industry that you’re like half excited about or selling a product that you’re only half excited about. I think that varies. For some people, that’s like whether it’s making exciting software. For me, it’s really simple. I really care about consumers and the journey that we can go on with them. So, I would be terrible in B2B, for example. I’m 100% a B2C guy. I think trying to get to that level of self-knowledge as early in your career as possible will save you a lot of heartaches. The other thing I would say is just bear in mind your investors, your senior leaders, you’re going to work with co-founders, these are relationships you’re going to be in for years, maybe decades. So focus much more on integrity, people who you can imagine spending 1,000 hours with rather than like who’s got the best CV or who’s the best salesman? For me, certainly, the transformers have affected Habito, not in its growth – it’s been the incredible relationships that I’ve built with the people that I’ve built it with.
Alejandro: Got it. That’s very, very profound, Daniel, so thank you for sharing this. For the folks that are listening, what is the best way for them to reach out and say hi?
Daniel Hegarty: You can find me on Twitter. It’s @dh_habito – I’m always very happy to help. If you need any help in the UK with buying a house, then come and see us at habito.com.
Alejandro: Amazing. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for being on the DealMakers show today.
Daniel Hegarty: It’s a real pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
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