Court Lorenzini is a true serial entrepreneur. With several successful exits under his belt, including building one company with a market cap of over $60B, he has certainly created an impressive portfolio of startups. His latest venture, MetaBrite, has attracted financing from top-tier investors like Duke Angel Network, Camp One Ventures, and Acorn Ventures.
In this episode, you will learn:
- How to qualify your business ideas before you start
- The benefits of greater visibility into your income streams
- More lessons Court has learned through starting and scaling five business
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About Court Lorenzini:
Court Lorenzini has started and/or run multiple companies in Seattle and around the world. In Seattle, he was the founder and CEO of DocuSign, Point.com, Acora Growth Solutions, and Primus BioVision before starting Metabrite. He also started and ran a $100MM+ technology company in Switzerland for 3 years.
Court is passionate about entrepreneurship in every form, and in particular, about building a strong and sustainable base of resources in the Seattle area for startups.
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Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:
Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the dealmakerr show. So today. We have a very exciting founder I mean a founder that has done it so many times I mean I think that you’re going to find his journey quite inspiring. You know one of his companies has touched so many lives I mean I’ve I’m a customer you know of of of this company I mean it’s incredible. So I think that without further ado. Let’s welcome our guests today Kurt Lauren City welcome to the show.
Court Lorenzini: Ray Alejandro good to see you man. Thanks.
Alejandro Cremades: So originally you know you were born there in the Bay area around the Bay area. Ah, your father was actually one of the a founding Fathers Fathers of Silicon valleyli So give us a little of walk through memory lane. How was life growing up.
Court Lorenzini: It was. It was a little chaotic I think you know having a founder technology founder as a dad was pretty intense and but I got to see what it was like firsthand as well. You know he was one of the early. Venture capitalists and originally one of the early angel investors in Silicon Valley so he had a lot of impact and I got to witness it all and learn from the ground up and.
Alejandro Cremades: Now how was that for you like really experiencing that roller coaster. You know 2 of emotions that he was a going through because obviously you you you are in it indirectly too. But.
Court Lorenzini: I I was and I think I don’t think it was the emotional thing that really hit home for me. It was more the just awe of these you know what he would do he happened to be part of a venture group where there were 6 partners and every. Month one of the partners would host a dinner at their house where they would have all the other partners over and then after dinner they would invite a sounder to the home to pitch while they had drinks and dessert and so twice a year every year for lots growing up. I got to sit in my living room watch a founder come into my living room and pitch a company and then the founder would be escorted out and they would sit there for the next hour or two and debate the value of this company and whether this thing had any legs and so before before I was even out of high school I had already seen you know dozens of. Founders pitch companies learn what vcs were looking for and it was an incredible journey to.
Alejandro Cremades: Now in your case engineering you know that sounds like the yeah like the perfect you know, like thing. Obviously you know you’re you’re talking about problem solving you see that you know you breathe that you’re experiencing that at home. Ah, but you did study quite a bit I mean you you got the engineering from Duke and then Stanford Berkeley Madison Wisconsin I mean you you were really into it into the studies Kurt.
Court Lorenzini: Yeah, yeah I Think for me, it was a large part of both infinite curiosity as well as opportunities to advance my career at any point along the line once I graduated from my undergrad degree I had. Opportunities to take new roles inside of companies if I had certain skills and so I used my graduate studies to gain skills that would allow me to advance.
Alejandro Cremades: And talking about advance or advancement or progress. You know when you when you graduated you moved to Switzerland and you were working there for Kla instruments and I’m sure that you know being able to get outside of the us you know, see different environments different mentality different cultures I’m sure that. That opened up quite a bit on the way that they that you thought about things.
Court Lorenzini: I you know honestly ah hundred that was one of the greatest experiences in my life I was I worked for Kla for you know several years post-grads in in the us and then they have gave me the opportunity to go start operations in Europe in Switzerland and. Even to this day that was perhaps one of the greatest things I’ve ever done and both of my daughters are themselves living abroad right now because my wife and I very much love that experience so much that I’ve now got a daughter living in London and a daughter living in Chile and.
Alejandro Cremades: That’s incredible. That’s incredible. Well ah chile chile Chile. Great great. Great place I gotta tell you so I’m sure that she’s gonna have a good time there. So in latin america there’s so much innovation. So so now in your case you get back to the us you start working for Cisco.
Court Lorenzini: Yeah, yeah.
Alejandro Cremades: But this was your immediate I would say secway into the venture world because I mean your first company will come right after? So so tell us about this. How did it happen.
Court Lorenzini: So I was working for Cisco after I came back from Europe and remember Cisco in the you know late 90 s um or the early 90 s was still a young company. They hadn’t you know they’d just barely gone public. It was very early days. And I was there during the time managing software development for them when they went from 200000000 to four and a half billion in sales over a four-year cycle one of the fastest at that time it was with one of the fastest growing companies in history and got to watch what it was like to be part of a team that was. Growing so fast and accelerating and it’s time you know my aspirations had always been to go start my own company and so I was sort of using that as a way to learn good management techniques look good leadership and hiring how to go fast and yet you know. Do things well and I ran into a friend from college who was working for Microsoft at the time up in Seattle and I was down in the bay area and we got talking about. You know what? the the next big thing coming was going to be and that’s sort of. Started our journey we we decided to start our company in 9096 and I moved from the bay area up to Seattle and I’ve been here ever since.
Alejandro Cremades: So point.com so obviously you know this was the first company first exit you know, quite a quite ah an accomplishment now because typically you know the first company doesn’t turn to be like ah like a good out company in your case I mean you you reached the finish line you know with flying colors.
Court Lorenzini: And ye.
Alejandro Cremades: So what was the lesson that you had to learn from from the experience here with point a.com and and most importantly I think that you know at this point you were able to experience as well. The full cycle of being an entrepreneur of building scaling and most importantly getting the company acquired reaching that finished like that promised land.
Court Lorenzini: Of.
Court Lorenzini: yeah yeah I think I learned a lot in that first cycle I think ah you know you think you know a lot going in as a first -time entrepreneur and then even as much experience as I had sitting in front of venture capitalists and raising capital and hiring and managing people. It was.
Court Lorenzini: Another level. Let’s just say so I think anyone doing it for the first time is that I can I can very much empathize with how hard that is and what hard lessons there are to to learn to come the the three point dot Com um we were the very one of the very first e-commerce companies. In the United States or maybe in the world if you think about it that way. Um, you know we were birthing right around the time Amazon a number of these other companies were kind of coming to market and you know we were defining technologies defining processes that would go on to completely change industries in our case, it was the wireless industry. Some of the stuff we accomplished back then had has long-term you know effects even to today in terms of how big and how successful the wireless industry has become because of some of the things we did back in the early to mid 90 S.
Alejandro Cremades: Now 1 thing that is very interesting here is that once you actually wrapped up this chapter you decided to go to the other side of the of the table not to the investment side and you know it’s very interesting that you did this right before your. I mean one of the biggest companies I mean the biggest company that you’ve done and certainly one of the biggest success stories. You know that we have seen in the venture world definitely but on this going on this other side of the table. What did you learn about pattern recognition. What did you learn about. Winners and losers or or not losers by people that learn you know either succeed or you learn. But what did you? What did you learn.
Court Lorenzini: So well I became a venture partner for a regional venture fund here in the northwest for a couple of years and that gave me an opportunity to see just sort of how they were valuing companies at the time what they were looking for what the market was demanding. And they ah also asked me to so you know step in and try and help save a couple of companies that were floundering and needed good leadership. Um, so you know, kind of I kind of saw the gamut but it never I was never too far away from being operational and I think the thing I learned about myself more than the industry is that I am. At the time at that time in my career I much more preferred being operational than just simply being an investor nowadays I’m just an investor but I and I love it. I’m glad I chose that path today but it it at that time. It was an affirmation that I was better running companies than I was just strictly investing in them.
Alejandro Cremades: So enter in docu sign. So at what point docu sign comes knocking the idea of Docu sign and and how did you go about bringing it to life.
Court Lorenzini: And so during my tenure runningpoint.com there was an executive that I had hired worked for me and he had gone off to start another company of his own. Um, and we’d enjoyed working together. He called me up. And he was stepping down he had stepped down as the Ceo of his company. He was on the board and his board had asked him to sell an asset that that they had acquired in a fire sale years before and he’s like hey I’ve got this great idea for a document management company. And I’d love to work with you again. Can we? you know? can we talk and so Tom and I sat down and sort of his original concept. What he pitched me when he first talked to me wasn’t really the idea it wasn’t the one that was going to go. And after digging into it with him for several weeks we came up with the idea of strictly focusing on digital signatures as opposed to being a big document management company and really making that art our key focus and so the the idea was sort of born out of an opportunity and. What and what ended up happening is his company I ended up negotiating a purchase arrangement of a patent and the name docusign from his company and I formed an entity in which they had a small stake.
Court Lorenzini: In return for giving me these assets and it turns out his company failed completely and the assets that we created the the small investment that that company had in docusign turned out to be worth an enormous and hundreds of millions of dollars to his investors later on in the you know once it finally went public.
Alejandro Cremades: Wow. So then let’s talk about docusign What happened next.
Court Lorenzini: And you know that was ah, an amazing ride that started in in 90 sorry 2002 and I ran it until 2008 and I think that the thing that was interesting there is that you know we were breaking pretty interesting ground you know not only were we doing things at the time everybody was doing everything by fax and fedex if you wanted to get anything signed. You were still doing it on paper and so you had this odd dislocation of enormous companies that were producing software technology to create electronic documents and an enormous. Industry of companies that were storing managing implementing supporting back you know back office tools inside of corporations that were implementing against those documents but you had this odd moment where the document exited the electronic world and. And then had to be physically signed and then had all that data had to be re-entered and so our real aha moment for docusign was that if we could create an electronic bridge between those 2 major industries the document creation industry and the document storage and of the implementation side and do so with data. That was going to be the the Holy Grail we could actually charge for every document that sort of made that transition and that’s the backbone and still the business model today of docusign. So.
Alejandro Cremades: So let’s talk about the business model. How are you guys making money there.
Court Lorenzini: And so ah money is made by think of a a virtual Fedex envelope but instead of having to pay for one that goes to every recipient and then has to pay for it to get back. We charge by envelope. We call them the digital envelope so you can stuff. 1 page or 1000 pages into a digital envelope and you can send it to as many people as you want for one price as opposed to having to send it out and back and you know send a thousand copies or 5 copies or whatever it is so the the model is per use of an envelope and the. Kind of the breakthrough there from a business model perspective was rather than buying them one at a time we asked people to buy for buy an allocation. So how much do you think you’re going to use. Oh do you need fifty one hundred a thousand ten thousand one hundred thousand of these things the more you buy the cheaper that they get per unit. Um, but by committing to them the front. Um, you now have them and can use them indefinitely right? And and once you start to use them up. You buy more so that did 2 things for us from a business perspective number 1 gave us an incredible cash flow because we got all the cash up front. Um, and then took it all to deferred revenue on the balance sheet and then only took it to active revenue once they were used so number one it was very cash flow positive. So as a young company that was brilliant. Second thing we did well is that doing that we had incredible visibility into our future revenue stream.
Court Lorenzini: And revenue growth because we could project early and that was ah something I learned at my days at Cisco they did extremely well and and I emulated with my business model docusign is to create a ah long. Ah, if you can see into the future. What your revenue is going to be It gives you an opportunity to become a very strong public company because that you can always you know deliver on the results that you project and.
Alejandro Cremades: And how was the um, you know the early days of being able to secure as well contracts with the likes of Microsoft or the national association of realtors.
Court Lorenzini: And that was well I would say each of those was a seminal moment in the development of docusign. Um Microsoft and then they came in around the same time we’d been sort of developing the technology for a while Microsoft had recently at that time remember this is the early 2000 released net technology and they really didn’t have at that time. Great success examples and without and our knowing it they ah 1 of the team. The dot net team was in the executive briefing center one day briefing the senior management team. Microsoft and ah Kevin Haran and Brad Smith were both in the audience that day but Brad was the head chief legal officer at the time and the the team saying you know this is perhaps hey there’s this thing that signs documents it’s called docusign. It’s a local company here in Seattle and they’re one of the greatest examples of net they’re using every capability they’re using it beautifully we you know we’re we’re going to start to do. We’re talking about thinking about doing some advertising featuring this technology as a best case use analysis of dot net and. And the next thing I know I’m getting a phone call um from Brad and Kevin’s office saying hey we heard about this thing in the Ebc would you like to come in and talk to us about Microsoft using this tech and so it was as an inbound phone call not an outbound phone call and so they were already kind of sold on the idea of using it.
Court Lorenzini: And by signing up with us at the time the company of their size and stature absolute 100 % validation that it was working that a company could trust it that it was legally binding and that they felt that they could run their national and international operations on it. It was a huge leap forward for us in terms of just being. Technology credibility. Um, so that’s that was Microsoft and that was I think you know we could now point to them and say hey if you’re even on the fence about using this check it out. 1 of the biggest you know, 2 or 3 companies in the world is using it successfully and they were great reference. Customers. For instance. The the national association of realtors was about growth because at the time we needed something that was going to really accelerate us into the into the zeitgeist into the you know the thinking of the people large and Microsoft of course is dealing with corporate customers for the most part, not individual. So. What the and nar gave us was an opportunity to strike a deal to integrate docusign into their documentation platform and by integrating it in as a ah as a white label private. You know solution. They. Did 2 things for themselves. They allowed for the beginning of full electronic documentation to buy and sell homes um made it so much easier for all of us and I think most of us now have if we’ve bought a home or anything of that nature. We’ve now electronically signed it and that was because the and er you know, jumped on the bandwagon. But for us.
Court Lorenzini: Meant that we could integrate with a platform that was touching three million realtors every day. Um and touch and customers every day. Um and we didn’t have to sell to those end customers just by integrating with their software platform. We got an opportunity to create a huge user base and that was the primary engine of drawught of growth or probably the first five years of the company was the realtors.
Alejandro Cremades: And how did you guys go about capitalizing the business.
Court Lorenzini: Well, we had ah basically for docusign. It was all venture capital so we had. We had a little venture debt along the way but mostly it was venture capital and we raised a lot of money so you know lots and lots of rounds and and you know the thing to also understand Alejandra is that. Took quite a while. I mean if you think about it. We started that company in 2002 and it went public in eighteen so it took 16 years to go from founding to public and along the way it was. You know it was steadily growing but it was um. It was ah you know it was a slow growth experience for the most part it was you know there were there were periods of rapid growth but just really getting adopted into all of the systems that were out in the in the world mostly financial and business systems is what ah you know the core drivers were but the capitalization strategy was just. Yeah, we were we were running at a deficit for a long time. However, the the key and this is that what’s key still is that our turnover rate for customers is very low. Once we get some a company to sign up to use Docusign. We almost never lose them and. Therefore the lifetime value of a customer is extremely high. So even though we were losing money at first sign up any new customer. The Ltv was so high and we and the turnover rate was so low that as a long-term investment. It was always going to pay off and so that’s what you’re seeing.
Court Lorenzini: As as continues to be the growth engine today. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Now the company as you said you know it went public. Ah, and what? what? what was they? What was the market cup but it speak. Do you recall.
Court Lorenzini: I you know I don’t know I don’t know that I remember what it was it was trading at you know three hundred and ten dollars at its peak trading range. So I don’t even know what that translated to into a market count but it probably 80000000000 I mean it’s it’s probably earth you know 70 It’s probably down it.
Alejandro Cremades: Wow! So how I mean how can about talking about impact I mean a stupid question here. How did it feel to be the to be the creator. One of the creators of a company that is worth seventy billion
Court Lorenzini: And or 12 now. And yeah.
Court Lorenzini: Ah, you know it’s becoming more commonplace now. But I think back when I was when I you know when it was new to me it was you didn’t see a lot of these multibillion dollar unicorns coming out. Um. And it was incredibly fulfilling I got to say the the thing I’m most proud of though isn’t this isn’t the size of the growth of the company. It’s that it’s still considered one of the best places to work so the corporate culture that that I established and and we established early has been. Pervasive it stayed you know, stayed with the company that this leadership maintained it what I’m super proud of that.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding a company with a right now where 8000 employees so imagine and imagine the impact unbelievable now now in your case Kurt you know it came a time where you realized that you knew it it was time to turn page. So what happened there.
Court Lorenzini: And so my experience as an entrepreneur one of the things I’ve always espoused is the idea that its founders. We have the most valuable thing we have is our time and our energy and so I did a. Funny calculation years ago where I realized that the sort of terminal value of a founder is reached at about year 5 of of the company’s growth cycle that it that if you look at the future value of your involvement as a founder. It starts to diminish over time. You have your founder shares you probably vested your first few major ah grants if you had grants of of options and any grants you’re going to get beyond that are small relative to your those original stakes and so at year about five six your best option is. You know, not only financially, but from a statistical success perspective is to is to move on and start something new and think like a Vc. So there’s here’s the blending the founder in the venture capital model whereas over the course of a founder’s lifecycle if they can start 4 5 6 companies. There’s odds that one of them is has you know greater odds that one is going to be a success It’s a portfolio model and the same goes true is that you’re going to have your set of your string of failures which are just normal. You know if you figure that ninety plus percent of founders startups fail.
Court Lorenzini: So I I applied that to my career and so every five years or so I would move I would found a company 11 years in I would move on and found another one and so you know I’ve done four now I’m moving on to number 5 soon and it’s worked out exceptionally well I’ve had ah you know. 3 of the four are the companies had exits 1 ah obviously incredibly successful to others which were good to decent and 1 complete failure. So as a batting average. That’s not bad. Certainly one I’m proud of and you know we’ll see what comes of number 5 yeah.
Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, no kidding no kidding. So then let’s talk about number 3 here prime bio vision. So why this one you know was as you would label the caka so what tell us about this experience. Okay.
Court Lorenzini: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to try something different. You know, having funded 2 founded 2 technology startups that required immense amounts of outside capitalization and and capital to run I wanted to test myself as a founder to see if I could build a business that was based on. Ah, cashh flow rather than strictly investment so something that got to be profitable very quickly and then on its strict cash flow could grow and and Morph and change. So Primus was an and and Primus was an opportunity in 2008 when I stepped down for docusine. Take advantage of the fact that Obama had just taken office. There was immense amount of money that was starting to move into the field of renewable energy a lot of national security discussions around energy security. And so I started a company that was that ultimately morphed into an ip tech licensing company where I had only 2 employees myself and 1 guy was a senior consultant and the licensing that we sold into the space. Just. Dropped cash in our pocket. We literally got to sit back and for years just checks would show up as licensing and revenue for that tech and it was was lovely. You know it was. It was very low effort. Very low capital low capex investment.
Court Lorenzini: And it paid off our investors nicely. So.
Alejandro Cremades: Now after this, you know, obviously another another company another success you go into your next one and this was metabright you know, but here what you really learned was being on the side of the table where or the side of the coin where things don’t unfold the way that you had hoped for. So. Why? What? What? What was the big lesson there because you’re coming from this journey of incredible success and then all of a sudden you hit a wall I mean how was that for you I’m sure it was not easy.
Court Lorenzini: Yeah, yeah, oh no, it’s it’s a huge wakeup call but it’s always one of those things that as founders we are. We’re always on the edge of those things and and the’s funny thing about the medabite story is that the company was at the time it the time it imploded was an. Incredible success. It was growing 50% a month compounding it was going so fast. It was just but but the the fatal flaw and the thing that really tipped us over is we had one that was riding on the back of predominantly 1 customer relationship and. We had several others that we were working on but that one was really the one driving and they were using the heck out of it. Obviously it was going quite well and then all of a sudden they pulled the plug and they pulled the plug because they found an alternative technology stack. Um, out of eastern europe that they could buy for pennies on the dollar and it was completely random that they found it. It was unlikely that they would have happened the fact the the ceo of that company had just happened to have a dinner at a fundraiser and sent next to some young guy who was croatian. And started talking and he’s like oh I have a check that does something similar to what you’re doing and sure I’ll license it to you for next to nothing and the next thing I know I’m getting a message saying sorry we don’t need you anymore. We’re cutting off your supply and I had no time.
Court Lorenzini: Or ability to respond and so the company folded three months later and
Alejandro Cremades: Wow. So obviously you know like there you know you’re dealing with a with something that you were not used to right and and I guess how do you go about dealing with what did you learn about dealing with failure and picking yourself back up.
Court Lorenzini: So I Think that’s part of the founder’s journey I mean you know we have micro failureilures and macro failures along the way Certainly everything I did didn’t always work Out. Um I think that the the hard part is the people right? I’ve always highly valued the people that I employ. And I feel like I let them down or or the that they have been and that that to me is the big big part and I’m I’m glad to say that of all the people that work for me in that company I’m still very close to most of them. You know I think we handled that shut down the best possible way you know we took care of our Vendors. We took care of our. Took care of everybody. We could take care of not everybody came away and obviously investors got nothing but um to the degree that we could maintain relationships. So I think that was for me the paramount thing is you know I’m I’m a longtime founder I value the investment I make in the people you know it’s not um. Unusual for me to hire people from former ventures that I’ve run into new ventures and also to use investors. Ah you know across multiple ventures and so there have been people that have made a lot of money with me and there have been people that have lost money and even the people that have lost money in cases that. I Value The fact that they’re willing to come back and work with me again. I.
Alejandro Cremades: So let me ask you this now. What’s next for you Kurt let’s say because obviously you know you have this say incredible. You know, energy. You know you can’t stop. so so What? what what’s next you know in your entrepreneurial journey.
Court Lorenzini: So one of the things that I noted along the way is that I love working with other entrepreneurs I love counseling them I love helping them I like um I just love the early stages of a company I think of companies as having 3 time phases. Um, and I’m ah I’m ah solidly a phase one guy sort of that napkin to product market fit phase and so the other thing I noticed is that over all the years of consulting and helping companies and working with people that most of the failures in the in the at least in the tech ecosystem. Um, can be traced back to the founding team in some way and so my next venture is going to be around helping founders. Um, find each other more efficiently. Um and do so with purpose meaning. Rather than starting a company and doing so with friends or friends of friends or people that have been recommended by friends. You’re going to do it with us with forethought of the journey you choose to embark upon and you’re going to find co-founders that are purpose built for the journey you’re about to take. And do so quickly you know quickly and easily rather than having to struggle to find those founders and that’s true along the entire journey so that doesn’t matter whether that’s absolute founders or throughout you know, maybe you’re 2 3 5 years in and you need to add another key component to your c-suite.
Court Lorenzini: And you know we have a person that you know we would have a person in our database. So it’s it’s called founder nexus and stay tuned because it should be I’ll probably be launching it in 2023 sometime
Alejandro Cremades: They I love it. Well definitely looking forward to that being unveiled now imagine if I was to put you into a time machine kurt and today I bring you back in time perhaps to that moment where you know you were still you know working at Cisco and figuring out what would be you know that next thing for you and and. Maybe like bring a solution you know to a gap that you saw existing and and bringing into the future now if you were able to sit down with that younger Kurt and give that younger kurt 1 piece of advice before launching a business. What would that be and why given what you know now.
Court Lorenzini: It. It’s advice I give and I learned it in the first cycle which is to when you have a new idea that you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill it and pressure test it meaning. You know you get we? Ah we as founders always get it sign in the matter of reason we you know the things we come up with and we can find all the reasons that are self-supporting to make sure that you know to keep us moving forward on the path that we’re choosing and 1 of the things I tell both myself and all the vet founders I counsel is to spend as long as it takes. Be your own worst enemy to look for every mode of failure possible. Um, and that includes looking online at companies that have gone before you and failed ahead of you and then seeking out through Linkedin or other means the executives that were in those companies in their current jobs and roles and asking them hey what happened? what. Reaching out to them actively and talking to them and saying what happened in your company. Why did it fail I’m trying to I’m thinking of trying to do something similar and love to hear about your journey and once you assimilate the the lessons learned from all of those sources of failure. Not only will it open your eyes to the potential failure modes. You hadn’t considered. But if you cannot as a founder come up with a viable solution to every possible failure mode you encounter. You should not invest your time in it so you should you should put it on the shelf and move on to a different idea and it’s it’s only the ideas that that are you know.
Court Lorenzini: The best ideas can survive the crucible and are probably worth your time and again, that’s that’s your most important asset. That’s what you should focus on. So.
Alejandro Cremades: I Love it So kurd for the people that are listening. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hi.
Court Lorenzini: I ah probably Linkedin is my easiest public facing thing. So happy to happy to see people there.
Alejandro Cremades: Amazing! Well hey Kurt thank you so much for being on the dealmaker show today. It has been an on earth to have you with us.
Court Lorenzini: So a ah hundred. So so lovely to be here. Thanks for the time.
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