Neil Patel

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Christina Cacioppo has gone from academia to a VC firm to becoming an operator. Leveraging that breadth of experience, she has not only raised $200M for her own venture, but is also helping other software startups launch and accelerate themselves. The startup, Vanta, has attracted funding from top-tier investors like CrowdStrike, Y Combinator, Craft Ventures, and Diogo Monica.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • How to maintain company culture as you expand internationally
  • Fundraising for your startup
  • Building a business that thrives in good and tough economic times
  • Christina’s top advice for other aspiring entrepreneurs


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For a winning deck, take a look at the pitch deck template created by Silicon Valley legend, Peter Thiel (see it here) that I recently covered. Thiel was the first angel investor in Facebook with a $500K check that turned into more than $1 billion in cash.

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The Ultimate Guide To Pitch Decks

Moreover, I also provided a commentary on a pitch deck from an Uber competitor that has raised over $400 million (see it here).

Remember to unlock for free the pitch deck template that is being used by founders around the world to raise millions below.

About Christina Cacioppo:

Born in the Midwest and based in Silicon Valley, Christina Cacioppo sits at the intersection of security, tech, and business. After starting her career in early-stage VC at Union Square Ventures, Christina went on to lead product management for Dropbox Paper, bringing the product to market. With Vanta, the Y Combinator alum is pioneering a continuous, automated approach to security monitoring.

Christina received her Masters in Management Science and Engineering from Stanford University and has taught Entrepreneurial Design courses at the School of Visual Arts in New York City. In her spare time, she reads books, runs with no destination, and cooks Sunday dinners for friends.

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Connect with Christina Cacioppo:

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the dealmakerr show. So I’m very excited with the gifts that we have today. We’re gonna be talking about building scaling. You know, amazing. You know the journey of this entrepreneur going from the investment side to the operator side now and super inspiring stories I guess. Without further ado as well as come our guest today K Christtina ca choo welcome up to the show so you were born in Iowa but you were you know you moved around a little bit so give us a little of a walk through memory lane so that the listeners can get to know you how is life growing up.

Christina Cacioppo: Thank you so much for having me.

Christina Cacioppo: Ah, it was good I grew up in um midwestern college town the iowa city and then Columbus ohio still bleed scarlet and gray. Um, my parents are were both professors. Um, really loved their work. Um, and I thought that’s what. Everyone’s you know beside those is what jobs were like um you would like really really excited about your job every day um took me a while to real life. Not every adult feels that way.

Alejandro Cremades: Well you you you are gonna go in into those same footsteps. So what happened what? what? what made you change direction there.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, Susan is again, my parents are both professors. Um loved what they did ah liked learning new things I was a curious kid and academics and academia actually which is like really familiar like I understood how I worked I like you know, kind of literally grew up like running around the hallways of the psychology department at Ohio State um and so just for a long time I kind of I think implicitly assumed I’d be a professor um or I try to be 1 at least because again it made a lot of sense. It seemed really accessible. Um I went to school out in California Stanford studied economics really like to this day really enjoy Microeconomics um, and. Thought I was going to go do the ad or try to do that until probably 21 or so it was kind of the end of school had just written my undergrad thesis and sort of realized that adults do other things with their lives not just become professors. Um. So ended up staying in school a fifth year got a master’s degree and in that year actually took a bunch of product design classes and like learned this whole other thing that was not economics problem sets it was like building things with your hands. Um and with pixels. Ah super fun. Put me on this this kind of separate path that um. Um, still on today.

Alejandro Cremades: Now when you go to Stanford and and and you get to experience there. The innovation that is going around you. You know there’s a lot of people that you know decide to to go that path I mean in your case, you decided to go to Europe then you go to New York and well.

Christina Cacioppo: No.

Alejandro Cremades: What do you think? took you so long to say hey let’s go.

Christina Cacioppo: Um I think I felt like I had to do a lot of things before I was ready to start a company I Think in retrospect, this was not as truth I thought it was um, but you know I think I had a lot of hangups I think some of it was oh I can’t code. Um and people who start software companies. Just both generally can and seem like you should right? Like how are you going to make this product if you can’t actually make it um and so I think there’s some of that I think there was honestly also some amount of like you know people like me for whatever definition you want to use like don’t start companies and so it it wasn’t It wasn’t something that was like kind of obvious. Obvious to like that people could do or I don’t know it just like wasn’t that obvious to me. Um, you think what a different one? Yeah I don’t I’ve mean put to different definitions I Think there’s a bit of like I mean quote Unquote Nontechnical, right? Like can’t code. Um I think it’s totally. Ah.

Alejandro Cremades: And what? what do you? What do you mean with people like me I mean you seem to me to me very capable of starting a company. What What do you mean with people like me.

Alejandro Cremades: Got it.

Christina Cacioppo: A big piece of it. Um, ah you know didn’t study computer Science. Ah more than a couple classes in school um didn’t really feel like I knew an industry right? Like what you efficient you’re 21 like what is an industry let alone like do you know anything about them. Um. You know somewhat seem like you should probably have a job before you try to employ people employing people just sounded very scary tended very like intense. Um unclear what it means but like not a good thing. Um, just a responsible thing. Um, you know some combination of things like that.

Alejandro Cremades: Ah, right? yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: So then teaching so then teaching yourself, you know to code because obviously you were just like talking about the now I didn’t know how to code. So then what what push you to learn you know to code and you know teaching yourself to God I mean that sounds pretty like an adventure and that challenging.

Christina Cacioppo: It was yeah I mean a couple things so one? Um, so after school I got basically it was really lucky and I worked at an early stage venture capital firm in New York called Union Square ventures and to that like people like me don’t are companies thing that was really helpful because over two years I probably met with like.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, so.

Christina Cacioppo: Five hundred or six hundred different founders and do you just see just a bunch of people right? You’re like whatever definition I had of like me people like that start companies. Um, and so that was actually really helpful for a lot of the you know, whatever that hangup was but to the coding point I still felt like.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah.

Christina Cacioppo: Hey I want to go start a company around a product but I can’t make the product and now I know people some people do that. But I just that’s not my style I feel like I have to be able to I feel like I have to understand this. Um, so what? I literally did was I took my bonus. From working there and just lived off of it for 2 years so in a different lifestyle um and took online classes. The first thing I did was this like audacity build a blog on the internet class. Um and built a blog. Um, first thing with the database and then turned it into a. Book website. Um because my favorite part of like going to someone’s apartment was like seeing their bookshelf. Um, and so I’ve made a website where you could do that it was kind of like good reads but better but sort of worse. Um, and you know these weren’t those big companies for they were like things to teach me how to build products. Um and did that for. A year or so little bit longer.

Alejandro Cremades: Now during the time at union square ventures I mean definitely one of the best day vcs you know, ah and in the East Coast you know right up there. You know at least for me, you know top 3 you know, maybe depending on what you’re thinking marketplaces and things like that you know it could be number 1 But.

Christina Cacioppo: Then.

Alejandro Cremades: You know meeting 500 founders is a lot of founders and I know I know you you know you were with legends. you know like Fred Wilson albert d wenger you know what what did you learn from you know they they basically like when it comes to pattern recognition on on.

Christina Cacioppo: It’s a lot of founders. Yeah, my gosh.

Alejandro Cremades: On what it really takes to succeed and and what perhaps separated the founders that had potential from the ones that didn’t have that potential.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, a couple things so one is that and it’s something I’ve like kind of harped on at vanta a little bit but is like fundraising success is not company building success and these are like 2 like raising money is often helpful or necessary for you know, building a. Successful software business. But they’re not the same thing at all like 1 is like the money is a means to an end and I think you see that in folks who raise money feel great about it and then for whatever habit like. Don’t have product market fit something changes and they lose product market fit and then it like doesn’t matter that you raised all this money like you. You don’t have a thing that works and if you start to lose faith in that anyway, that’s it’s kind of all bets are off and you see how I think we talk we you know we talk about the company that do really? Well we talk about the companies that explode like just get destroyed in spectacular fashion. Um, but there’s actually this whole kind of middle or segment of companies that just keep going kind of and how hard that is and how actually that’s that’s actually the most common outcome. It’s not you know again, everything like disintegrates on you in a week. It’s like no, it’s just a slow decay over years. And how hard that is and so I think actually that made me quite skeptical of lots of ideas and ideas my own is like is this an idea that’s good enough because even if you can raise money for it that doesn’t actually mean that like it’s something the market wants things that piece I think the.

Christina Cacioppo: Other piece too is there was like ah I mean it. It sounds cliche but like a quick clarity of communication where there were some founders who could explain what they were doing and there’s some that couldn’t and if you couldn’t explain, you’re doing It’s just like everything else was harder or raising money recruiting people. All of that. Um. And how you know that sounds simple but there was there’s also a middle segment. There are 2 where people who kind of especially like technologists who’d like invented something. They didn’t quite know like what it was useful for yet or how to explain it and that’s where actually I think I think this is one of Fred Wilson superpowers is like sometimes could like see that. Um, and be like no no, there is a thing here. They can’t quite explain it. But like we can get it here. Um, that piece. So anyway, so communication obviously very important. It’s not you know? Ah, if you don’t have in the beginning you’re you’re ruined but like you do need to figure that out and actually in the later stage founders. You just saw like a. Succinctness a clarity of thought and a clarity of communication. Um that I think probably transferred and translated into a bunch of other things you know, being more decisive internally being clearer internally being able to like talk to the folks you’ve hired and explain direction and set that all of that.

Alejandro Cremades: Got it now you know, let’s talk about the ah you know vanta because as they say you know I ideas they are doormant. You know it take time to ecuate marinate. Whatever you want to call it but you know at what point you know, did it come to you and then.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah.

Alejandro Cremades: What were the sequence of events that needed to happen for you to say? Okay, let’s go.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, so kind of back to the skeptics of them. So okay, so the first bit was so a kind of career arc briefly was building all this stuff off my old bonus. It was fun but also didn’t really have health insurance wasn’t a great setup so eventually decided to get a real job joined Dropbox. Um, in San Francisco and was a product manager there trying to take this new product to market Dropbox paper to the time and I was just like the p I’m trying to run around and launch launch. This new thing you know, convinced it would it would all work and in the process of doing that basically like ran headfirst into Dropbox with legal team. Who are being totally doing their jobs and you know as I was giving the product away to customers came and found me and said hey you’re breaking all of our contracts because the contracts with these customers say dropbox is socked too compliant and pen tested and hippa compliant and like regulated and you know this that and the other. Your product isn’t any of those so you need to you know fix that right and I was again kind of the do hisypm who was like I don’t know what any those words mean like would you mind explaining them I’m sure I can take care of it. Um, when in fact, it was you know many months you know little little ah you breath there. Um, so like first exposure to these processes. So it’s basically like they’re necessary in order to launch. Ah it is this huge blocker and time sinknc super manual. Um, but you have to go through it and I was like oh this is this not what I imagined my logic should be like not at all.

Alejandro Cremades: So then so then so then what happened next you know what point do you? Um, you know do you say? Okay, you know we’re going to go with this and then how did you think about you know, taking the first steps and and you know towards that execution of bringing it to life.

Christina Cacioppo: So.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, so then there was like you know I wish I could tell you the story I was like oh I ran into them and then I really start a company and like the next half the races was not that smart. Um, honestly, what happened is like you know did some of this work some of this work tried to just run away from a Dropbox for about a year um left ah exploring different ideas was really interested in security and particularly helping startups build their security programs. Um to spend a bunch of time with startups in San Francisco and founders talking to them but hey like what are your security practices and people would generally look at me like I don’t really have any I know I should but I feel guilty telling you this. Um, and kind of through that process came back around a compliance because it was basic this thing where it was like oh this is how you show your secure and you need it to for the you know to launch or to get these customers and because you want the customers because you want to want you’ll like go through the whole process anyway, until came back around and. Was you know, kind of the second part of the aha moment. Um, from there. It was like a six month process of interviews be doing all the things that vanta does today manually? Um, so going into people’s companies and doing this manually to try to see if they we actually could do it. Um. And then building more and more software around that over time. So there was probably a six months phase where it was like hey do we even do this Um, does anyone trust us and then oh we do it in a standardized way like do the companies all roughly look the same um and then.

Christina Cacioppo: Oh yeah, this all the sounds often. Good. Let’s go. You know, let’s go build even more.

Alejandro Cremades: So I guess for the for the people that are listening to really you know, get it What ended up being the business model of vanta. How do you guys make money.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, we are a subscription software business so sell usually annual subscriptions to I mean vanta writ large is how it works today. Um, with that the software will help you monitor your company’s assets like cloud infrastructure laptops people. Employees and accounts. Um and vendors and basically make sure all of that is both working well today and there aren’t any major security gaps snafu with holes within or across any of those things and then because you’ve got things in relatively good shape. Will help you go demonstrate that and show that off with a compliance certification like sock to or hipaa or a trust center like a page or you can say like hey here’s all my security practices like you you should you know we truly actually do protect customer data and so you can trust us.

Alejandro Cremades: And you guys have also raised quite a bit of money. How much have you raised to date so ascar. That’s a lot of Zeros christtina you know, but the ah but the good news here is that you knew you know what it failed to be on the other side of the table. So.

Christina Cacioppo: We have but $200,000,000 cross roughly an a and a b round his.

Christina Cacioppo: Yes.

Alejandro Cremades: Why would you say that you took from being on the other side you know to now being on the actual hot seat and and really I guess making sure that you were picking the right people for the right reasons for this.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, so a couple things and I think it did help I had never pitched before vanta but it did help having seen a bunch of pitches and I think one part honestly is just not being scared of investors like you know there’s a little bit of like they should feel honored to invest in your business. You have to go full full onto that. But just some bit of like they’re they’re humans as well right? and they might be humans who are extraordinarily good at their jobs to your point about like Fred and albert and the Usb folks but they’re also just people. Um, they’re not gods. Um, anyway, so there was probably that like overall frame I think also. A little bit of the you know, kind of funny goofy psychology of investors like to fund businesses that don’t need to be funded and so the best way to raise money is to not need to raise money on that is you know both the timing comment and like how you raise how you build your business. Um, so for the first couple years vanta operated it. Cash flow break even and that wasn’t it wasn’t because we didn’t want to raise money or you know wanted to Bootstrap. It was more just like oh no, if we want to raise money this is again. This is the way to get people to want to fund the business. Um, and we could and it it saves a lot of headaches as well. I think through those 2 pieces the um you know investors can be. Extraordinarily good at their jobs but they’re just people um and the yeah, the best way to be funded is to not need to be funded. Um as much as possible.

Alejandro Cremades: So it sounds like you had I mean obviously you know being in the space you know for a few years with a Unisore ventures you had the network you were also as you were saying you know, operating in in cash flow ah on the cash flow positive side of things but at what point you. You know, think hey you know I think that we should activate now the network and then also what kind of trust or communication were you building over the course of time until you were able to activate the switch.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah, is a good question. Okay, so we decided to raise when we were at about $10,000,000 in revenue. Um, this ended up being like early twenty twenty one um and decided to raisee for a couple reasons one we felt like. Raising more money actually could help us go faster. Um, so it was actually because people thought people being customers candidates other investors thought we were actually much smaller than we were um because we had raised money right? and so it’s like oh they’re probably you know a million or two in revenue and you’re like oh no 10 times that um. And I think that filtered into a bunch of other parts of the market. Um, so anyway, so that was some of the motivation. It was also easier to attract candidates because it’s like oh if we like seem this like more stable more real company than than they thought um, it’s also silly because you know we were the same company before and after but from ah from the outside perspective. You know we seemed much larger. Um, so that was some of the why around then um, honestly also think like the market like was starting to heat up. There were more people who’d like seen our success and started copying and sort of like ok well let’s just you know, go? um for it um prior to that so it was it was sort of you. Advice um, that’s I think you know, kind of given but as investors people like to invest in lines not dots. It’s this kind of famous blog post and basically the idea is like right? you’re building this relationship over time and like one meeting is a dot.

Christina Cacioppo: And each meeting you or each meeting is a dot and you want to like connect them and hopefully there’s a you can’t actually draw a line up into the up and into the right there and so would have touch pointss with a handful of of investors. But honestly it wasn’t super often every four to six months um you know they would sort of ask me for ques. Like how much with our revenue and I you know declined to tell them in some you know, circuitous but very polite way try to be anyway. Um, they would say how can we be helpful and I I’d love I’d love customers like can you introduce your portfolio companies to vanta. Um and hey by the way if you do that you can diligence us like. Go ask them if it was a good experience if we knew how to sell if if you don’t actually worked right like that. This is really a favor for you. Not me? Um, um, and I think we were like ah sure but they did it and so.

Alejandro Cremades: That’s how we think well.

Alejandro Cremades: Now now your guys’ case you have over 300 employees and you’ve also opened offices outside of the Us. Um, you know when you think about culture too and I guess every office you know has its own culture to a certain degree. But.

Christina Cacioppo: Essence.

Alejandro Cremades: What is that process of of opening an office you know outside of the us and and making sure that the culture is just as close as possible to what you have going on at the headquarters.

Christina Cacioppo: Question is a great question. Um, we’ve we’ve done this twice now we have an office in Sydney and an office in Dublin and in both cases roughly the offices that have been opened. Um. Half by folks locally. So like someone you know australian lived in Sydney um, experienced in b two b sass and half actually vantons. Ah american vantons that we have like sent to Sydney for some number of years like on a on a life journey. Um, and it it is that kind of meld right to the office ends up being like 50% you know van to us who’s come over in 50% local. Um, and that’s just one way of trying to like seed it in a way where again you get the benefits of everything local but you get some eventtic core to the other bit is just I mean. There’s Zoom calls and like trips right? and it’s bringing people. Actually you know next week um all of the revenue teams at vanta so sales cs parts of marketing are all getting together in person and like the global folks are very much coming right? And so I think there’s also this bit of on a company level. Like if you have a sales kickoff or you have a company event like bring in the australians and the europeans as well, right? they are part of the sales team. It is not just north america event. Um and things like that too because like that that that just is invaluable.

Alejandro Cremades: Now in your case too. You know when we’re thinking about culture as well. You recently completed an acquisition and you know most acquisitions fail because of the integration. So I guess when it came to the integration and you know we’re just talking about culture. What kind of ah.

Christina Cacioppo: Business.

Alejandro Cremades: Safety measures or ah, how did you all think about executing on this to ensure the success of it. So.

Christina Cacioppo: It’s a great question and we’re working through it. So hopefully this this answer doesn’t let sound I don’t know terrible in six months um you’re just like way off, um, but you think a couple things so beforehand like there and this was part of I think that the company we acquired their decision to to sell. But.

Alejandro Cremades: Ah.

Christina Cacioppo: But in general into us was was a values alignment and a lot of the conversations I had with the founder of the other company were were I mean they’re about vantub but they weren’t right. They were about like you know, a little bit of like Kristina what’s your childhood. How does that influence how you work at Vanta like you know there in a. And being a little jokey but also very serious right? It was very much a like who are you as a person. What do you want on both sides sort of conversation to try to be like is there enough alignment here because in some ways actually the vision and the product stuff totally made sense so that was like yay sure. But like as people will this work. Um, so sort of the before stuff and then I think as where you you know, execute it on it and are continuing to integrate in a lot of ways. It does come back to people right? and it is just like these touch points and being like you know how does this feel does this feel right? like is anything you know being messed up scale of 1 to 10 how you feel right now. Um, and then how you know like knowing the other person I’ll be like ah I’m a 2 win here’s why I’m a 2 and you’re no one wants to be a 2 you know, let’s talk about that. But actually it just like literally having those touch points and and conversations.

Alejandro Cremades: Now I think that you guys are a quiet team lucky too on the type of business that you have with vanta because you know the macro environment that that we’re right now dealing with you know is is a little scary. You know you got all these people you know that are doing layoffs and stuff like that. But nothing’s stopping Vanta. You know what?? what’s going on.

Christina Cacioppo: You know it doesn’t get easier. You just go faster. Um, ah as Greg Lamon said ah to is like very true and startups. Um I think theres that I also think there is a bit of the the painkiller nature of the product right? It’s like they.

Christina Cacioppo: Good security doesn’t care what macroeconeconomic environment is and like hackers don’t care and the scrutiny and sales and someone being like hey can I use your product or will you like leak all my information all over the internet that happens in good times and bad and so I think for all of those reasons and it’s been. You know, knock on wood and all that but pretty resilient here. It’s like kind of if you’re a B Two B business you’re selling to bigger companies that are bigger than you are you will need what vanta offers so that that’s just True. You know again regardless of what the federal interest rate is or anything like that.

Alejandro Cremades: That’s amazing now. Imagine you had the opportunity of going to bed tonight Christina and you wake up in a world where the vision of vanta is fully realized what does that world look like.

Christina Cacioppo: You know? Yeah, Um, this security ah of software is always verified or sounds high level but basically um, really at level. We go back to trusting the software we use. Um, and software companies. Um right? and it’s like oh here’s some new software. Ah, you know I’m going to use it and I’ll do great things for me and I know and I kind of feel competent in that not where I feel like now we are where it’s like oh there’s some new software and you’re like they’re probably going to get breached like you know if you if you put any information in it. It’s as good as being on the internet. Um. And so I think a world where Vanta visionion is realized is one where you know we’re rigorous with the security of the software use but it’s it’s Good. You have confidence in that and trust in them.

Alejandro Cremades: I love that now you know in in this case, you know you guys have grown quite a bit I mean we’re talking about like I think it’s like something crazy like in the last year like over 78% growth on the job count I know that damn you know when you go from.

Christina Cacioppo: Yep.

Alejandro Cremades: From early stage to to grow stage I mean it’s it’s like you know, an incredible transformation that the business is experiencing I think that you know you have that seed that the series a you’re still in the future possibility and all that kind of stuff and then you know you go into grow states and it’s all about historicals and. And and then going as fast as possible making sure that you don’t break things so what are some of the challenges. You know that they that perhaps you know like are different now at at a gross stage first.

Christina Cacioppo: Or yeah I mean now I think in the early days. It was like how many fingers and toast. Do you have to like plug in all of the like holes you know and you’re kind of like that star wars robot that’s like trying to like um, ah prevent the water from leaking out of the pipes that of you know, leaks in a bunch of places. Um, now the funny the things I harp on are much more I mean I harp a bunch on speed I’m like deathly afraid that now the vanta is large and you know there’s more people and more communication over ahead and more processes that we will get slower over time. Um i. And so that certainly changed. Um I think in the early days again. You’re kind of running around doing all of the jobs to the best of your ability which is often quite poor up. You’re like doing your best. Um, and now you know it’s very different because you have experts and people are very good in at the role in the role. Um. And so you know the feedback I give changes my role changes like I’m not going to teach a great sales leader. How to be a sales leader like that is that’s recipefe for disaster right? but but I do have a bunch of vanta contextt I have a bunch of customer context I have you know. Ah, point of view on how the market’s going to evolve anyway and so it ends up being their conversations end up being much more about that than like oh who’s going to send the follow up after the 2 p M sales meeting or like I got a run to this you know sales meeting that I will do my best at but who hopefully goes ok.

Alejandro Cremades: Ah, now we we were talking about you know future. You know the um, you know where you’re seeing things you know and and and the vision to if we were to take a look at the past and be able to take a look at the past with with some reflection. You know imagine I was to put you into a time machine and I bring you back in time I bring you back in time to you know, maybe that moment that that you were still at union square ventures and and wondering about maybe like doing something of your own and and perhaps you know, bringing a solution to a problem that you were encountering. Imagine you know you had the opportunity of having a sit down with a younger Christina and being able to tell that younger Christina you know one piece of advice for launching a business. What would that be and why given what you know now.

Christina Cacioppo: Oh yeah.

Christina Cacioppo: Yeah I mean it’s that I like cringe when I think through that and and cringe because it’s like I would just want to tell like younger seem to like chill out. Um, like I mean worked very hard and like things will happen but like worked very hard at things things will happen. Um.

Alejandro Cremades: I.

Christina Cacioppo: You know it. It is no more complicated or simple than that. Um, anyway, so there’s like something in there. Um, for sure. Um I don’t know I mean I think it was actually at usv ah I can’t remember who this was but someone it was like I was late. Or I think I like blew off a meeting like because I just like misread my calendar totally in Aly and I was just like mortified basically and the other person was very nice about it and was basically look There was like look universe garma like someone’s going to do this to you just just be nice to them. You know like you you know you’re like minus one you’ll get back to 0 right? but just be nice. Yeah, you’re you’re down one on the universe. But but it’ll come back. Um, and that very helpful in the moment but I actually do think of that and there is a bit of like oh you just want to like play the universe karma game. Um, ah for when things go well I think things go poorly is like not totally rake yourself over the colds for it. Um, but in the like yeah work hard play the universe karma game. You’re not going to be able to control when stuff happens but like hopefully you just have enough shots where something works.

Alejandro Cremades: I love it now for the people that are listening Kristina I would love to reach out and say hi. What is the best way for them to do so.

Christina Cacioppo: Ah, email probably Christina At Vanta Dot Com first name at VA

Alejandro Cremades: Amazing! Well hey Christina thank you so so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been an honor to have you with us today.

Christina Cacioppo: Thank you so much for having me really appreciate it.

* * *
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