Neil Patel

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Bruce Smith has gone from competitive rowing and coaching to leading a connected fitness startup that has raised $288M and is better for you than a Peloton bike. His venture, Hydrow, has attracted funding from top-tier investors like Constitution Capital Partners, Sandbridge Capital, Activant Capital, and Rx3 Growth Partners.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • The benefits of rowing
  • Right-sizing your team
  • The need to go fast


For a winning deck, take a look at the pitch deck template created by Silicon Valley legend, Peter Thiel (see it here) that I recently covered. Thiel was the first angel investor in Facebook with a $500K check that turned into more than $1 billion in cash.

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Moreover, I also provided a commentary on a pitch deck from an Uber competitor that has raised over $400 million (see it here).

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About Bruce Smith:

With a lifetime of experience as a championship-winning rower, the former president of Chicago Union Rowing and Paddling, and the coach of the U.S. National Team, Bruce has always been passionate about moving the sport of rowing forward due to its positive impacts on the body and the mind.

However, you might say his life’s work was predestined. Long after he fell in love with rowing, Bruce discovered, quite by accident, that his ancestors were, in fact, a legendary rowing family. In addition, his great-grandfather was a master boat builder in Cambridge who made the first sliding seats in racing shells.

Throughout his career, Bruce has remained steadfastly committed to improving communities by making rowing accessible to all, including his work previously as the executive director of Community Rowing in Boston. He also founded Lincoln Park Juniors, a rowing program in Chicago for underserved youth.

Today, Bruce continues to thoughtfully innovate new ways to make the water and the rowing world more accessible, while also improving the communities in which we live.

Bruce will tell you it was the “swing” of the rhythm of rowing in perfect harmony with his teammates that bonded him to the boathouse and the lifestyle. And he says that the same “swing” is what continues to move the entire rowing community into the future.

Under his guidance, the Hydrow team has been able to create a world-class way to do that: our rowers. Together, we continue the movement, with a state-of-the-art home fitness offering that grants you access to world-class waterways, the sport’s most elite Athletes, whole-body health, and a community that spans centuries, and the globe.

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Connect with Bruce Smith:

Read the Full Transcription of the Interview:

Alejandro Cremades: Alrighty hello everyone and welcome to the deal maker show. So today. We have a really exciting founder. We’re gonna be talking about fundraising you know, ah what differentiates good investors from body investors. Ah. Scaling you know all of the good stuff that we like to talk about so I guess without further do let’s welcome our guests today Bruce Smith welcome to the show. So originally boarding canada so how was life growing up, give us a little far walk through memory lane.

Bruce Smith: It is great to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

Bruce Smith: Everybody was just so polite. It was really great. You know you just walked down the street. Everybody’s like lots of room and so you know I grew up in New Brunswick which is really far away small town. My town was actually a sign on the side of a. Ah, two lae highway called Prince William and it took about 40 minutes to drive into school every day so it was it was super rural like super super rural and honestly I could not wait to get away. So I I got myself to school in Montreal as fast as I could.

Alejandro Cremades: Why Why couldn’t you wait to get away.

Bruce Smith: You know I really thought that like life was happening somewhere else and it seemed to me like our little town was provincial looking back. It was a great place to grow up honestly like super safe. Super amazing I actually I moved out of my parents’ house in high school I lived by myself. And had an apartment and and I had a business I painted houses ah to support myself and worked at a pizza join and um, in retrospect, it was pretty carefree. But at the time all I wanted to do was get to the big city and Montreal a 10 hour drive away was was the big city.

Alejandro Cremades: And from being able to ah get out of your house. You know at such a young age and getting other jobs and how do you think that out that that all shaped your ambition and who you are today.

Bruce Smith: I just I I really love. Um I love starting things I love making things and I have a really good relationship with money. Um I I you know i. I don’t like money’s not an end for me like I I don’t really care about being rich but I I just it’s fun to make money and be able to do stuff so from a very young age you know I I started mowing lawns when I was 10 I graduated painting to painting houses when I was 14 and then I you know I I paid my way through college I had a company. Um, both in frederickton and then when I moved to Montreal I you know started up painting houses in Montreal too. So like I’ve been paying my my own way for a long time and um, it’s just really fun I get a huge kick out of it I think it’s the funnest.

Alejandro Cremades: You know that’s interesting that you mentioned that your relationship with money you know we all have a relationship with money because I think that live is the intersection between capital and people right? So I think that there’s a lot of people that are listening now I’m probably wondering hey you know. What is my relationship with money you know now that I’m learning this from Bruce Smith: what is your own relationship with money Bruce and what do you think people that are listening. You know could learn you know from from what so what? you’ve gotten from you and your relationship with money.

Bruce Smith: Um, when I was younger and I didn’t have any money I had this experience where I thought like oh if you have money everything will be better. It’s not It’s just it’s exactly the same if you can afford my threshold is if you can afford a cup of coffee and a roof over your head. You’re. You’re doing all right? Um, the fun part about money is that it’s this amazing tool that allows you to create things in the world. You know with resources you can bring something to life that just wasn’t there before and so it’s not that um, money’s an end in itself. It’s that it’s this tool that allows you to be creative. And it gives you ah the ability to bring a team together. It gives you ah ability to to make things in the world. You know like my old job at community Rowing. We wanted to make our own coaching launches like the the boats that coaches use to follow rowers out on the river so like we got some money we got a grant together and we actually like. Built our own way close launches which was it’s just so much fun and that kind of freedom to create in the world comes from that um relationship with money and if you don’t understand money has its own rules and its own kind of um necessities around the relationship and to me money is really like. Access to money is evidence of trust between human beings and took me a long time to get there. You know I’m fifty three years old and it definitely did not have that perspective and and you know I love a first -class plain seat as much as the next guy. But.

Bruce Smith: That’s really not what it’s about. It’s really, it’s It’s really about that freedom to create.

Alejandro Cremades: I hear you now in your case I mean you you did move quite a bit. Obviously you went to o migule university then you graduated from that then you moved into other cities other places. What do you think you know trigger that move or those different moves that you’ve done. Um, you know because you were also doing real estate. You know you build you know also a marketplace in the late 90 s I guess from all these times that you’ve moved I mean I find that it’s like starting over to certain degree new friends new things. The unknown uncertainty. But do you think you’ve gotten you know out of every single time that you moved and and also why did you move for so so long I’m for so so much

Bruce Smith: No yeah I keep ah I view it as like concentric circles getting closer and closer to New York city which is kind of like the center of the world in some ways you know and. So I went from New Brunswick to Montreal to Chicago to Vermont and now I’m in Boston and I’m I’m just a few short hours to New York I spend a lot of time there and honestly like growing up in Canada you don’t really understand how the United States works and just how um. How many resources there are here. It’s just it. It boggles the mind you know it’s ah the opportunity to go to different places and live in them for several years ah each place is really different. You know Chicago is like a wildly different from Vermont and Boston is different again, but the opportunity to just. Absorb what the United States is really about and there I think I said about I almost said it like an american but not quite and ah understanding the depth of relationship that people have here and and how they make decisions and ultimately you know access to that pool of capital that is uniquely american. There’s nothing like it nothing like it in the whole world The mobility here is radically different from the mobility in Canada.

Alejandro Cremades: Now your case rowing you know, played a critical piece in your life and career. So how did you get into the whole rowing thing.

Bruce Smith: It’s kind of I I wish I could do a better alpatino imitation I keep getting sucked back in I tried I tried to quit rowing like a bunch of times so I started rowing at Mcgill I got recruited to be on the you know the team at Mcgill. Got really involved in it. It was really fun for a couple of years and then I tried to make the canadian national team I didn’t make the team. Um I thought when I moved to Chicago it was you know the late 90 s and I would go train in Chicago on my own and like sneak my way back onto the canadian national team when everybody retired. Ah, from my little group of you know rowers and that generation and instead I got sucked into this coaching thing and coaching is really fun like you know like you get um, depending on what kind of level you’re at so I’ve coached at all different levels I coached at the high school level. Coached at a catholic school in Chicago started a public school program in Chicago built a couple boathouses there and on the Chicago river which is like kind of an exciting experience and when you get to the highest level the national team level. Ah you get this main line and the people’s.

Bruce Smith: Like into their soul like you know like there’s no other way to say it. There is nothing. You won’t do to win like follow the rules follow all the rules really carefully, but there are basically other than like don’t use drugs like there are no rules and it’s a group of people trying to do something. Is effectively like completely useless in the world. So again, it goes back to that freedom like there’s no reason to row around in boats. It’s just this thing you’re trying to do and you try and make it perfect and you put every ounce of what you’ve got into it and. So I got I got sucked into this roing thing and that became very addictive to me. It was you know it’s really It’s really really fun to try and do that so I went I’ve been to the world championships 10 times for the United States I’d love to coach at the olympic level at some point that’s like a you know a dream. Maybe maybe a pipe dream. We’ll see how that goes.

Alejandro Cremades: Mom.

Alejandro Cremades: And what what kind of fail leadership lessons you know, can you take out of rowing because that’s how a lot of people you know that are pushing you know towards one direction and to certain degree steering. You know a company is very similar. So what have you taken? you know from a leadership perspective out of the rowing world.

Bruce Smith: Um, yeah, yeah, the coaching thing is ah coaching at the elite level is very similar to being a Ceo at a company and ah I would say like. So rowing is kind of a tired old trope. You know like oh we’re all pulling in the same direction and everybody in the same boat and um, definitely you know like um I don’t think people put posters on walls anymore. But they used to put posters of rowing and um, it’s out. It’s actually true like those those are. Um, they’re not bad metaphors ah people working together. The interesting thing about coaching though, especially so when you’re coaching a big group of people you have 50 or sixty boys or girls in high school like they all do the same thing but when you get to the elite level when you’ve got. 8 people who have dedicated 6 years of their life for 10 years of their life to go to the world championships and represent their country each person needs very specific stuff and because we’re all so different and and you’re doing exactly the same motion but different like. 2 or 3 people in the boat will need a ton of information to be able to perform some people need the bad news. They need to be told all the things are doing wrong because they they want to improve and that’s the only thing that they believe and other people really need positive motivation and being able to discern those different motivations I think has been.

Bruce Smith: Um, really really valuable as I as I built a team here at hydro.

Alejandro Cremades: Nice now. Let’s talk about hydro at what point because obviously you were in community rowing for about almost fourteen years at what point you know that’s the idea of hydro come knocking because I mean you were already for a while you know doing the coaching thing and.

Bruce Smith: In.

Alejandro Cremades: So at what point do you? you know, realize hey I think I I kind of go for this idea right.

Bruce Smith: So peloton started in 2012 and that was cool. Huge respect for peloton around 2013 2014 so I was always looking for ways to scale rowing if you could do 1 thing in the world to make people feel better. Like if you knew what that was you would do it right? So I know that wrongwing makes people feel better. It really does. It’s super efficient. Use your time but it just makes you feel good. You know like turning on all your muscles in that way moving in synchronicity with another human. So I I knew this thing that if we could deliver it to millions of people. The world would be at least like. Maybe not measurably better but slightly better and with that I was watching peloton and I knew at some point like there’s this inevitable shift. Um, biking is really fun and I love cycling. But it is not great exercise and I knew from coaching you know like it. It only engages 2 out of 7 major muscle groups. So it’s just it’s not a super effective exercise and there is this inevitable growth. You see it from crossfit to orange theory. The world is eventually all going to use roing machines for exercise in their homes because it’s the best exercise. So I knew I knew the shift was inevitable. And I saw what was happening with peloton where they were making a really cool experience but it had nothing to do with cycling outside and I was really worried that they would start to divorce rowing machines from this incredibly beautiful immersive experience that happens out in the water. So.

Bruce Smith: Honestly, we started hydro to to bring that experience of being out in the water into people’s homes and make it accessible in a way that it wasn’t before and it was it was entirely the product of technology because it was really only 1516 that you could start to broadcast live from the water. And ah use cell phone signals so you could take like 5 or 6 cell phones. Um, you know film an Hd break the signal apart send it up to the cloud and into somebody’s home for a reasonable price and we looked at different solutions earlier but that was the tipping point when the technology. Made it possible for us to create this system that we did at hydro.

Alejandro Cremades: That’s incredible Now you know in this case for you guys. How do you guys make money for the people that are listening to really fully get the business model. Yes.

Bruce Smith: Oh yeah, we are a connected home fitness device and we sell you a rowing machine which is very beautiful. It’s won all kinds of awards and then once you start using the roing machine you subscribe to hydro it’s $44 a month. And we have an amazing user base super committed people and and rabid users and I think we’re one of the top 5 connected fitness companies in the world. At this point.

Alejandro Cremades: I Mean the design is absolutely beautiful. How did you? How do you go come up with with the design.

Bruce Smith: Ah, it is crazy beautiful. Um, we put a picture of a 1971 maserati ah on the wall and that car is just you know it’s got these curves and shapes that are just to die. And we put a picture of a rowing single up on the wall umtemflley built to one seventy three in Switzerland out of wood and that also is incredibly beautiful. It’s that rowing singles are they’re thirty feet long they weigh £30 even the wood ones weigh £30 and they’re. Ah, their widest point they’re about 16 or seventeen inches wide so they’re really these like little toothpicks that go along the water and then we put a picture of a wave and we had an incredibly talented design team a woman named Julie Miller was the lead designer. She came up with four designs. 3 of them looked like kind of old school gym machines. You know like that like that you would recognize and the night before we had the big confab with like 12 engineers and myself and Julie and everybody sitting around ready to be like okay it’s March we’re gonna pick our design today. She came brainwave complete brain wave and.

Alejandro Cremades: Um.

Bruce Smith: Designed the whole thing in 1 sitting and brought it in exhausted the next morning I went to the meeting I was like this is too radical I can’t this doesn’t look like a rowing machine and so I I chose a different design and fortunately the lead engineer for this company gerhart palacca. Was like he waited. He didn’t say anything at the time he waited the next day he was like hey we got to get a beer and ah so he went and got a beer and he was like you’re choosing the wrong thing that thing that was so beautiful. We all thought it was so beautiful. That’s the one and so that’s that’s what we chose and heaven looked back.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow now. Pearlly I mean rowing I mean I’m I’m like a big fan of what you guys are doing. You know, big fan of rowing you know people that go to the gym. You know have their personal trainer Now you know they they they they get them into into into the rowing but it’s not. As popular, right? as maybe getting on a tremall or or or maybe like a bike I think eventually hopefully you know I’ll I’ll pick up. You know some good momentum and it’ll be right up there. But I guess for the people that are listening What are some of the health benefits of rowing.

Bruce Smith: So Let’s start with the bike so you sit on the bike. It’s got kind of an uncomfortable saddle and you have to adjust it in at least 4 dimensions to make it comfortable and then you curl over the handlebars and you take off and you’re really, you’re using your legs. But you’re really not using any other part of your body and your muscular skeletal system is being loaded only through the muscles. The bones are not being loaded at all and so what that means over a long period of time is that you’re not building any bone density you’re just you’re just building the muscles in your legs and some cardiovascular. Capacity. But you’re building it very slowly because it’s only turning on a small part of your body with rowing when you sit down in in the boat or on a rowing Machine. You are turning on literally actively turning on every single muscle in your body except the muscles above your neck. So your whole body your posterior chain. And nobody knows that they have a Posteri ear chain. You know I say it in every every chance I get but that’s the series of muscles that keep you upright that uncurl you after curling over your screen for the whole day that keep your ah inner cavity of your your body. It opens up the cavity so that all the organs in your body can do their work. That gets turned on and there just are not very many activities that do that and the cool thing about the way that it gets turned on is that it it applies pressure across your whole Skeleton at the same time. So it introduces these little micro bends to your bones and it’s those little bends to the bones like you can’t feel them but they.

Bruce Smith: Happen when you when you’re running or when you’re rowing and that improves bone density. So you’re loading your cardiovascular system in the most effective way you can do it. There’s really nothing else like it other than maybe cross- country skiing. You’re doing ah because it’s an on off motion. You’re also creating strength. And you’re improving your bone density and there’s just there’s nothing else like it in terms of efficiency. So when when I was coaching a lot somebody would come down to the boathouse if they had an injury and they said hey coach I can’t go out on the water today I would put them on the bike for twice as long as we would be out on the water because that’s what it took to catch up.

Alejandro Cremades: Wow now for a company like this. How did you think about the first hires and you know building that team.

Bruce Smith: And terms of impact.

Bruce Smith: You know I got incredibly lucky. My first hire was a genius named Chris Paul he was our chief technology officer. Um, it’s kind of like fundraising you know like when you when you need money ask for advice and so I needed a cto and so. Ah, somebody connected some some kind person I didn’t know very well at all connected me to cp and um, weirdly, we ended up talking a lot to Chris Paul the you know the basketball player so cp was going to help me find my first cto. And we talked once on the phone and then he was like hey let’s get dinner and then we got lunch and then we got another dinner and then we had 2 more lunches we ate 7 meals together and at the end of the seventh meal he was like actually I think I want to be your cto and that set us on this track where it was It was really extraordinary. He’s a lean and agile ah religious fanatic you know and and he taught me really how to live lean and agile and he’s also just a brilliant engineer and and by hiring him like the next 5 people we hired were also just amazing. Amazing people and he he’s. You know veteran been through 7 other startups and was just invaluable to get both our culture and our product right at the same time.

Alejandro Cremades: I mean that’s incredible because typically the Cto is the toughest role to fill, especially if you’re like the business founder. So that’s absolutely remarkable. How ah what about what about fundraising because fundraising you know this? This is this sounds like a capital intensive.

Bruce Smith: Friend.

Alejandro Cremades: Type of business. So how much capital have you guys raised today.

Bruce Smith: Ah, we have raised just about $200000000 in equity and some additional debt. So um I think all in we’re you know we’re approaching about $300,000,000 ah in terms of capital and. Yeah, building hardware is not for the faint of heart. It’s really like the cycles are just so much longer. So saas is 1 thing like you can you can build a saas product. Get it out find out if it works or not with hardware. You’re really committing to product market fit before you can really know and we were lucky.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, yeah.

Bruce Smith: Ah, we went so priority number one was going incredibly fast so we had a prototype in six months psychophysical works works like looks like prototype on June fourteenth first meeting was January Fourth so that was ah I think he’ll lay in speed record and also I I know so much about the sport. And what I wanted to do. There wasn’t we didn’t have to do a lot of discovery. So like I and I knew what we had to do right away. So that part of it helped a lot and then on the fundraising side. Um, again, you know, maybe better lucky than good but I had through the course of working at community rowing I gotten to know. Dick Cashin at 1 equity partners and his nephew worked to community rowing and kind of unbeknownst to me like he he was he you know he’s close with his family and he was following along with what was happening here in Boston even though he lives in New York and he’d hear you know like over Thanksgiving dinner and stuff what what was happening and so we got to know each other better and and when I told him about my idea to get this thing done he he was the first investor and and invested $3000000 upfront. So there was a huge huge leg up and he’s. You know oep is he invested personally but oap is one of those very you know pretty well respected shops and got us off on the right, right? Foot. So really, that was key and we had another great advisor Howard Anderson who’s a founder and also a venture capitalist so between Howard and dick and.

Bruce Smith: Ah, we we were able to assemble a small group people who are pretty exceptional.

Alejandro Cremades: That’s fantastic now. Good investors and bad investors. What sets the good investors apart from the bad ones.

Bruce Smith: I can set people told me this before but I’ve lived it now. It’s really and I can vouch for this. Um I made a list of the best people in hardware and connected fitness and the very top of that list was el catterton they’d invested in peloton. Um, and they were you know they’re just so well respectted. They have this incredible team and I tried and tried and tried to get an introduction and finally somebody ah, you know made a really good introduction. Um I was over the moon because they they led our series a. And we were the first investment I think that they had ever made pre-revenue in a company. Um and just as ah as a firm um people congratulated me at the time and I did not grasp the magnitude of what had just happened because as the pandemic has you know, come and gone the the business is. Has really grown explosively and we have a really great 10 year trajectory 100 year trajectory. But the past year has been has been really challenging and and we were able to continue to finance and capitalize the business in a way that is setting us up for success and really great outcome for everybody but I I know a lot of my peers in this industry have had to. Accept terms that are really really punitive and um, having a great long-term partner like lcat is just it’s really exceptional. It’s that it’s a difference maker in every dimension.

Alejandro Cremades: And what in terms of you know, fundraising as a founder. Do you ever stop fundraising.

Bruce Smith: My if I had any advice that was worth anything. It would be um if you want to start I think everybody wants to start a business like like everybody I talked to is like oh that’d be so fun to start a business that you must be prepared to tell the same story 3 or 4 times a day. If not more with equal conviction and sincerity. Um, so you’re talking like thousands and thousands and thousands of repetitions and if you can’t do that if you’re not prepared to do that. Don’t do the business because. Every person you meet needs to understand what you’re about and if you can’t share that and spread it 1 by 1 from the from the founder to investors and you’re going to talk to 400 investors before you find the one who actually believes and is willing to you know, willing to write the check. If you can’t do that if you’re not prepared for that work. Um, you really shouldn’t do it. It’s kind of I won’t say it’s like being a politician but you have to have some of the same skills. You know like you have to be willing to get up there and give that stump speech and it has to be fun. You have to like investors on some level like it’s got to be like a good give and take otherwise it’s just not going to work. You’re going to deplete your energy stores and and you will not be able to bring the heat when it matters.

Alejandro Cremades: Yeah, now for Hydro you know for the people that are listening. You know that would love to get a better understanding on the scope and size of the business anything that you feel comfortable sharing like number of employees or anything else. Okay.

Bruce Smith: Yeah, so we’re privately held. Ah and we don’t share all of the information but we have just about 95 employees we did a riff left last July and we did another smaller riff in january.

Bruce Smith: Unk Re always super painful to do but it is this extraordinary opportunity to rightize the business and we have a ah set you know a recurring revenue Stream. That’s very substantial and it was crucial to get we. We were building for growth Mode. You know like we had scientists back Deal. We were ready to do this Back. We were so fortunate we we pulled up before we did this back and so it was right sizing our team so that we were prepared to operate with the goal of profitability rather than hypergrowth and that’s just it’s a very different skill set a very different team and we’ve made that Pivot. Um. I Think in in my opinion and in the board’s opinion really really successfully.

Alejandro Cremades: Now imagine if you were to go to sleep tonight Bruce and you wake up in a world where the vision of hydro is fully realized what does that world look like.

Bruce Smith: We have ah millions and millions of people who can’t wait to use their hydro rowing device or their strength device every day it gives them not just like that. Physical bump that you get from exercise but it gives them you know human connection and experience of nature and they get the hydro high every day and as a result when they go spend time with their family or they go to work. They’re a little bit Kinder. They’re a little bit more generous with their time and and they trust people more. And that to me would be just fabulous and um, serving exactly the right workout to the right person at the right time and that kind of personalization. So that people get what they need no matter where they’re from no matter their walk of life. No matter if they live in a. Tiny apartment in downtown Manhattan or you know, ah a suburban house in Kansas City really bringing people together like that would be so exciting. It is so exciting.

Alejandro Cremades: That’s incredible i. Love it now. Imagine if I put you into a time machine and I bring you back in time you know back in time you know for you to be able to have a chat with that younger Bruce. Maybe that younger Bruce that they you know were starting to be independent and you know you were now dreaming about doing things of your own and and you could see the impact now of money and how you’re able to to get money and your relationship with money if you were able to give that younger Bruce one piece of advice before launching a business. But would that be and why given what you know now first.

Bruce Smith: Ah, buy bitcoin. Ah yeah, so yeah, get about you know 4 or 500000 bitcoin for a pizza. So um, the vikelvas fins actually are investors in the company by the buy. Ah so I would say.

Alejandro Cremades: Ah, ah.

Alejandro Cremades: Okay, okay.

Bruce Smith: You know I wish I could have got here with less struggle and pain but not that you know like pain is relative like you know I’ve had a ah really really really I’ve I have loved all of the things that I’ve done with my life and I think that. The thing that I would say is um, you can always go faster like just go faster. Um, there’s a lot of waffling and a lot of people who try and keep things the same and our job as entrepreneurs is to change things and there is a basic conflict there and it’s amazing like the. The more I have learned about the force of will to accelerate and that idea of velocity like don’t dilly-dally like if you’re going to do it. Do it. Do it faster anything you can do take two days off the timeline take a week off take a year off make a radical decision. And jump in with both feet and find out that it fails faster. Um I I see that ah that impact you know the the older I get the more precious time is and I really try and accelerate in every dimension and honestly if we hadn’t accelerated in that ah in that way with this company. We wouldn’t be here. You know we just wouldn’t have made it.

Alejandro Cremades: Now for the people that are listening Bruce that will love to reach out and say hi. What is the best way for them to do so.

Bruce Smith: Ah, find me on Linkedin or send me an email at I have an incredibly easy email and I actually I I try and answer everybody people have been so kind to me. Fundraising and introductions and giving me advice that has literally changed my life. Um I try and do the same and I have a heavy debt to fill there. So really happy to respond to people.

Alejandro Cremades: Amazing! Well Bruce thank you so much for being on the deal maker show. It has been an on earth to have you with us today.

Bruce Smith: Thanks, Very much. Really great.

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